Cicero On Duties, Episode 1

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Hello. Welcome to a new podcast series on the writings of Marcus Tullius Cicero. I'm Josh Bowman, executive director of the Ciceronian Society, and our goal is to read through and discuss selected works by Cicero, starting with what is arguably his most influential work, De Officiis, or On Duties, as we call it in English. With the help of various guests, I and other members of the Ciceronian Society hope to introduce more people to the works of this great Roman statesman. With a couple possible exceptions, most of us on this show are not specialists in Cicero, but we think this will make our engagement with his life and work more accessible to the majority of people listening, who are also probably not specialists. The Ciceronian Society, however, is not exactly a Cicero studies organization. In fact, we're an explicitly Christian organization that seeks to encourage and equip Christian scholars as they serve the Church. So while we will definitely bring a Christian perspective and critique to this conversation, to Cicero's writings, this does not mean we're simply going to trash him or. Or make him a saint or something like that. Right? We want to take him and his context seriously and respectfully, believing that he has much to offer on contemporary questions and issues, even if it's not always obvious what that contribution might be. I would also mention that as Christians, we know that Cicero, he's so unusual among ancient figures because we have so much information about him, so many of his writings survived. He became in some ways an inspiration for a lot of the language that the Church would use to talk about itself, especially in the Middle Ages, right? His Latin, Caesar's Latin, as well as the ecclesiastical Latin that would develop among others. He is a huge impact on how we talk and how we think, and that is not a small role to play. Plus, we know that when it came time to invent the printing press. What's the second book off that printing press? It was on duties, the book we're going to start talking about because it was so important, the first, of course, being the Bible. And so we are going to take him seriously, and we are going to. And we'll have some fun. I mean, Cicero had a sense of humor, and so we're going to have to bring that up here more than once. We also welcome your questions, feedback, criticism. Go ahead, put it in the comments. And because we begin this podcast knowing that we have a lot to learn, and you're invited to help us in that process, I should also mention that this is one of two podcasts by the Ciceronean Society. The other is called the Sower and covers a wide range of topics related to our core themes of tradition, place, and things divine. Things divine being a phrase of Ciceros. Be sure to check out that one as well. The Sower is published approximately every week on Sunday evenings, and our goal is to get this one to have short regular episodes of this series until we're done, until we get to, well, wherever we want to stop. We will not be putting a time limit on the series as a whole in terms of how long we're going to do this for. We want to get to the end of at least this book. We'll see how it's going and maybe move on to other writings of Cicero, and so we hope that you'll enjoy that I am joined today I I guess I should mention so you know who in the who you're listening to. So, in addition to being the Executive Director of the Ciceronian Society, I have a PhD in Political Theory from the Catholic University of America. I specialized in the history of Western political thought, specifically as it pertained to environmental thought, which as far as I know has nothing to do with Cicero, but certainly in the history of Western thought, the history of Western Christian thought, in particular Christian political thought. And today I'm joined by a legend of the Ciceronean Society who has helped edit this podcast and who has hosted a number of episodes of the sower for us. Mr. Dr. I just called you Mr. Dr. Grandpa Chris Anadel Chris. Tell us about it yourself before we get going. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Oh, sure. Thanks a lot, Josh. It's great to be part of this new project as well as the so we're excited to launch a second podcast with the Ciceronian Society. I am. I have a PhD in Philosophy from Emory University. My teaching focuses mainly on the history of philosophy and modern philosophy. I run a small YouTube channel on the side where I've been doing lately a lot of videos about Schopenhauer. I'll be teaching a course on Schopenhauer in the spring of 2026. Coming up here at Mount St. Mary's University, where I've taught for the past 17 years or so. I also teach here in the undergraduate, the graduate, and the seminary programs. I also direct the Master's of Arts and Philosophical Studies program here at Mount St. Mary's University in Emmitsburg, Maryland. I've been involved with the Ciceronean Society since way back, probably since 2014 or so, 2013, when we were back at the University of Virginia, a long way back. Very excited to be part of this. And as you just said, I'm A grandpa now. My first grandson just turned one a couple of months ago. So I'm at an exciting new stage of life right now and I think that's about all you need to know. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we have a lot of ground to cover. Cicero is a really interesting guy and, you know, it's hard to overstate Cicero's importance. I've already talked about how his Latin and his. The way he talked and his. The construction, the way he thought about oratory, rhetoric, language, etc. Has become foundational to the study of language going on, but not just to that, but also to ethics and natural law and a lot of other schools of thought within philosophy as well as Roman history. So there's so many ways in which he is important. I mean, it got to a point where in the late. As early, as recently as the 19th century, people didn't necessarily give. They wouldn't attribute quotes to Cicero because he was so well known. They would just say the quote and people would know that that's something Cicero said. Cicero is a key part of education, particularly this book on Duties. Many of the American founders, I'm guessing all of them would have read Cicero, likely in the original Latin. And there is again, it would be very hard to overstate, but he's been forgotten in the last 150 or so years and I'm wondering why that is. Yeah. What were you going to say, Chris? [00:06:52] Speaker B: I wanted to share a recent experience I had. Just a couple of days ago, I left a comment on a live stream by a much larger YouTuber friend of mine, Gregory Sadler, who runs a philosophy channel on YouTube. And I'd asked him, what thinkers do you think are kind of undervalued relative to their intrinsic worth? Who are some philosophers, some writers who are dismissed too easily by people in general? And one of the first names out of his mouth in reply was Cicero. There's a tremendous value in Cicero, not just in On Duties but in many of his other works that philosophers have tended to ignore, dismissing him too much as a popularizer or a sort of practical, you know, eth. Manualist, you know, sort of here's how to be Happy as a sort of practical how to guide. But in fact, there's really some. A lot of philosophical value in Cicero. I just wanted to share that because I think that that's. We're not the only ones thinking that it's time for a Cicero revival and there's plenty there that is valuable for us, both as academics, intellectuals, also as Christians and as people just trying to make our way in the world today. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's much to be said about how, yes, by Cicero's own admission, he is reapplying or transmitting ancient Greek thought that he loved to the world that he lives in and to future generations. But he's not a plagiarist. He's not just copying and pasting whatever he found in these earlier writers. He is doing an act of interpreting and applying that gives originality to his work and to his thought. And it's no small thing to keep alive great ideas and thoughts that have come before you. I mean, that's one of the gifts that Cicero has given us, is that there's many thinkers and other writings that we only know because Cicero recorded it. Right. And then later, there's parts of Cicero that we only know because Augustine recorded it. But that's a different story for later. Let's talk a little bit about Cicero and his life. I want to go through and just give a quick biographical sketch, if you want an easier. There's a lot of books being written about him. I actually just got one on my desk. This one, Cicero the Man and His Work, by, I think you pronounce it Andrew Dyke, D, Y, C, K. I have not read it yet. I have no idea if I can recommend it to you because it is a huge book, but it is a biography of his. There's a really accessible one by. Oh, his name escapes me right now. He's a popular historian. Is it Anthony Everett? Does that sound right? I think it's Cicero. Well, I'll put it in the show notes. I'll try and remember when I think of it, very accessible book that covers his life, so I'm not going to do justice to it here, but he's born January 3, 106 BC, in Arpinum, same as the town that the general Marius had come from. If you know Roman history at all, Marius is the one who saved Rome from a barbarian invasion in about 101 BC. While Cicero was just a boy, he is a contemporary of Caesar and Pompey. Of course, that's going to be really important for later in his life. He's actually born the same year as Pompey, but he's six years older than Caesar. Cicero, importantly, was what you call a Novus Homo, a new man. And this means he was not born to political power and prestige, but would be the first in his family to achieve political office through merit. Basically an aristocrat by effort, not because it was just handed to him. Though I don't want I want to make sure. I also say he wasn't. His family was not poor. They were local aristocrats rather than on the national stage until he is older. As a teen, he does do some military service under Pompey's father in what's called the Social War, which was between Rome and her Italian allies, which ends up expanding Roman citizenship to more people on the Italian peninsula. Very important moment in Roman history. He was well educated as a child. He studies law with Scaevola, studies oratory in different places. He survives the prescriptions of Sulla. Sulla comes after Marius as the dictator in Rome in the late 80s B.C. and makes his first public court appearance in in the forum in 80 BC. He travels to Greece and meets a number of famous philosophers, comes back from Greece and starts working his way up the Cursus Honorum. He's quaestor of Sicily just before Spartacus slave revolt, and he famously discovers the grave of Archimedes. I always like that particular story. He makes a lot of effort to find it. He then moves up to the Aedile praetor and eventually he has his son, Marcus Quintus. He had married Terentia a few years before this. I can't remember the year, but Terentia is his first of two wives he will have. 63 AD is a big year for him. That's when he serves as consul. And that consulship, even though this book is going to be written, I think like 20 years later. Ish. The consul at the time is the highest political office. Remember, there's no emperor yet and there's always two consuls. The other one is Antonius, but no one really thinks about him. But famously, Cicero exposes the infamous Catilinarian conspiracy, which earned him no shortage of both fans and enemies in his time. And his reflections on that consulship and his defense of his actions play an important role in this book that we're about to read as well as others he does. After his consulship is up, he returns to the Forum and eventually takes a case where he testifies against Clodius on a sacrilege charge. I think it was actually sleeping with the Vestal Virgin. Don't quote me on that. But this is in the late 60s and early 50s, by the way, when Caesar, Pompey and Crassus form the first Triumvirate, which Cicero refuses to be part of. Caesar becomes consul and then eventually goes off to conquer Gaul. Then the same Clodius that Cicero testified against against earlier has it in for Cicero, and so he leaves town and is exiled in 58 BC. Now, we're well into the last days of the Roman Republic at this point. Again, another key piece of the context here. The Roman Republic is dying. But it's hard to say whether everyone realizes it, though I think Cicero can see some of the writing on the wall. The beginning of the end, I would argue, and others have argued, is actually with the conflict over the Gracchi brothers in the mid second century. So about 30 to 50 years before Cicero's even born. And while Marius and Sulla inspired no shortage of trauma on the republic when Cicero's a kid, we are now entering the. The days of increasing civil conflict. The triumvirate is doomed to break apart. And Cicero can see much unraveling as Caesar flaunts Roman traditions and laws. There's mob rule in Rome at times. And this is when he also starts to write works like his De Republica and De Legibus, the republican laws that at least in some cases. Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, but we. We don't discover those until what the. The late 18th, early 19th century in the Vatican. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Not certain about that. I'd have to check the sources, but it's plausible. [00:14:01] Speaker A: I know a lot of that was, you know, we do get the text of some of that in St. Augustine's City of God before this, before. Before we actually get the actual text. Again, I think it's found in the Vatican, early 19th century. Now. Now Cicero is then involved in some peace efforts. He's assigned by Pompey while he's living abroad. But in 48, Pompey loses to Caesar at Pharsalus. Pompey runs off to Egypt where he's murdered. Cicero is pardoned by the next year by Caesar, a pardon which Cicero wonders if it's a little dishonest in different ways, I think that comes up in this book. At some point, the Republic is dying. Caesar's doing his best to kill it, defeating the remaining republicans like Cato and North Africa. And at this point, we should mention that Cicero divorces his first wife, Terentia, and then marries Publilia. I don't know if I can say that right, but with Terentia, Cicero had welcomed a daughter, Tullia, very important piece here, who he clearly loves in a very deep and profound way. Sadly, Tullia dies after giving birth to a son in 45 BC, and this moment inspires deep grief in Cicero in many, many writings. In fact, the years of 45 and 40 BC are extremely prolific for him. Now 44 BC, of course, is also the year that Caesar's assassinated, an act which Cicero does not participate in, though he will seek to defend it in this book. In fact, that act and its failure to restore the Republic is arguably the most important piece of the political context shaping this particular work. But Cicero's position is precarious, so he has to flee again. He goes to Greece, but returns a few months later, doing his best to make Mark Angel Anthony hate him. And in his view, Antony is becoming an even worse tyrant than Caesar. He's going to argue that Brutus and Cassius should have killed Antony as well as Caesar. It's late in 44 B.C. when Cicero also writes Deificis, the book that we're about to read, also called On Duties and the subject of our podcast. This will be his last work. It's also the last extant writing that we have. To his son, who's also Marcus Cicero. The second triumphant forms between Octavian Lepidus and Anthony. Cicero ends up on a prescription list and he's murdered under Anthony's orders on Dec. 7, 43 B.C. at the age of 63. Now, some I've skipped over a lot. Anybody who knows Cicero knows that. And as we read, we're going to have to come back to some of these people that he met, especially as he's learning people he's learning from Posidonius, Philo of Larissa, Diodotis, Panaeus, I think is, how you say it, Panadeus. But there's, yeah, we're going to have to, we'll go backwards as we need to. Yeah. So did I miss anything, Chris? [00:16:48] Speaker B: I don't think so. I might add, about the character of On Duties, that it's not a theoretical work of ethic of ethical philosophy as much as it's a kind of practical manual for how to actually recognize and think about your duties as you try to live them out in your life. So it's, it's meant to be practical as well as philosophical. [00:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I, it also almost seems like therapy to Cicero. I mean, he sees, you know, he's no longer able to be in public life, which for a Roman of his stature is just, it is like death. And after Tullia has died, after he's been exiled, I mean, this is, this is a difficult moment for him. The question is, does he despair? Does he think this moment in history of Rome is a moment of transition or like to something darker to, to, to the empire? Does he realize that's coming or is it just A temporary setback that he may not survive. Because if we think of his. What are called his philippics against Anthony, we see that there's ambiguity in the political situation. There. There might be a chance to. To fix things, you know, do. So. You know, Cicero's running with this. Do you fight? Do you run away? Do you just go with the flow? What do you do? And so I think that's. That. That's part of that here, because, again, Cicero's not a pure Stoic in this sense. I mean, he's certainly influenced by the Stoics, but in that influence of the Stoics, he's asking that question, how do we live? How do we make the right decision, the honorable decision, given the circumstances? And that's not. That's not easy. And he's. He wants to educate especially younger men on how to do that. And so this book is very much a part of saying, let's think through how to make honorable, good decisions according to virtue. And. Yeah, that's. That's essentially On Duties for you. So are we ready to start reading? [00:18:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. Why don't we. Why don't we dig into the very beginning of the book and we'll. We'll see what. See what comes to mind. [00:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I should mention, by the way, we're using. My camera's not as good. Yeah, we'll let Chris pull his up. This is the version of Cicero's On Duties by. It's the Cambridge text in the History of Political thought, edited by M.T. griffin and E.M. atkins. I believe it's. Is it Griffin or Atkins that is the translator? [00:19:05] Speaker B: I know we looked it up once. I think it's Atkins. [00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's. It's in my notes here, I think. Yeah, it is. [00:19:12] Speaker B: It's. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Translated by Margaret Atkins, edited by Mirren Griffin and Margaret Atkins. This version is published in 1991. Highly recommended. This is the version we will be reading from. And here we go. There are three books, by the way. We will start with book one. Marcus, my son, you have been a pupil of Kratopus for Kratopuses for a year already, and that in Athens. Consequently, you ought to be filled to overflowing with philosophical advice and instruction through the great authority of both teacher and city. The former can improve you with his knowledge, the latter by her examples. However, since I myself have always found it beneficial to combine things Latin with things Greek, something I have done not only in philosophy, but also in the practice of rhetoric, I think you should do the same, that you may be equally capable in either language. In this respect, I have, it seems to me, provided a great service to my countrymen. As a result, not only those ignorant of the Greek language, but the learned also think that they have found some assistance both in learning and in making decisions. Now, Chris, anytime you start a book, the beginning is important. [00:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:26] Speaker A: And so what do you think? And again, I think we should also mention that it's not clear that this would have been the final version that Cicero would have published, so we didn't get a chance to edit it. But the way he starts this is still important. It's not a dialogue like some of his other works. He's writing to his son. Right. What do you think this opening tells us about what we're about to jump into? [00:20:50] Speaker B: Well, I get two things out of it, I think, from an initial look. One, it is addressed to his son. So it is a kind of intimate document. This is advice given by a brilliant man, but it's advice given to his son, to someone he cares about. His son is about 21 years old right now, and he's living, I think, in Athens. The other thing I'd get out of this is that he's talking about the value of writing in Latin and reading and doing philosophy in Latin as well as in Greek. And I think that there may be a little bit of a, I want to say, prestige competition here, where one might think, especially the son studying in Athens, that Greek is really the language of the. The philosophers. It's what's really valuable. And Cicero is writing in Latin to his son. And in some ways it's defending, I think, the value of conducting this kind of inquiry and this kind of teaching in Latin as well as in Greek. And then he's sort of expanding it as a work that might be read by some others in some version. We, in a sense, are standing in for the son who's going to get this practical advice that is going to be valuable, although not perhaps directly in line with sort of Greek commentaries on Greek original texts. That's my initial take on that. What's yours? [00:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, one thing I was interested was to look at it was who is Kratopus? It's quite the name there. Back here in page 156 of our edition, they write that Kratopus is a eminent peripatetic philosopher born at Pergamum. Inscriptions there show that he took the name and tribe of Cicero after being granted Roman citizenship at Cicero's request by Caesar. Originally a pupil of Antiochus of Ascalon, he had deserted the academy and was teaching as a peripatetic in mitylene on Lesbos by July of 51 BC. Anyway, so he's a teacher of Cicero's son. Apparently he's part of the family by adoption, essentially, not by blood, which I thought was interesting. And, you know, he's going off to Athens. I also really like this, this part where he, where Cicero talks about the great authority of both teacher and city. The former can improve you with his knowledge, the latter by her examples. You know, how does a city teach? Right. That's an interesting idea. You know, does he mean the leaders of the city? Does he mean the experience of the city? Does he mean the difficulties of the city? It's. It's not immediately obvious to me, but he's, you know, as you said, this is not a theoretical work. He wants to dive into. What does it mean to live in a city and to live. To live. Well, the knowledge you get, the theories you get right. Are not going to be enough Marcus to figure all this out. [00:23:41] Speaker B: Well, you might think he's also sort of kind of calling, if the son is inclined to be a little bit brainy and maybe a little bit condescending about it. This is the Roman man of action, right? This is the politician. Even though he's sort of, you know, he's in exile, he suffered some, some fall from power and some disgrace and eventually will lose his life. He's still defending the idea that ethics needs to be put into action in public life, in politics, in warfare, in making practical decisions. And so maybe warning his son or maybe us against thinking of, you know, ethical philosophy, of goodness, of the honorable, etcetera, as objects of academic study. It may be saying, in a sense, either implicitly or maybe we'll read explicitly. Don't get too inside of your head about this. When you're thinking about duty, it's about doing your duty in the specific context that you're in. And here's a great deal of practical advice about this, looking ahead a little bit. One of the things that impresses me is that when Cicero comes to talk about virtue, he begins talking about wisdom, and he finishes with wisdom in about two paragraphs. And then he goes on to talk about justice and courage and being a man of great soul, all the sort of practical virtues there. So I think some of that is even front loaded in here, right? You're studying Greek, studying in Greek with the Greeks in the heart of the Greek Academy in Athens. But don't get to thinking that that's, that's where it's at the real business of ethics and duty is going to be in the practical world. [00:25:12] Speaker A: It makes me think about centuries later, millennia later, where Machiavelli's criticizing some of these ancient thinkers as well. [00:25:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:20] Speaker A: He's saying you're working with imagined states. Right. He's criticizing Plato in the Prince there. But Cicero's already kind of moving beyond that. This is where his synthesis of that Platonic and Aristotelian heritage in particular is very valuable. He's saying, look, it is good to have these nice ideas about what is ideal, in a sense, but we also want to make sure we focus on what can we actually do. Right. How can we actually live? Not only how ought we to live, how can we live? Right. There's a. I don't know, is the word efficacy? Is that even a word? It has to be efficacious. Morally efficacious. Right, right. And for me, he's very much in that. I mean, unlike other philosophers that were, that you might read in ancient times, he's deeply involved in politics. Now you could argue. Right. That Plato's an advisor to. So I can't think of who it is. And Aristotle of course, advises Alexander. Who does Plato advise? Right. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Dionysius ii. [00:26:23] Speaker A: That's right, yeah. In Syracuse. Okay. This Cicero, I mean, far more so than Plato and Aristotle from the political philosophy standpoint. He is very much living it. He's in the midst of it. He's a realist in that sense, not always about himself. I like this in this respect, he says. I have, it seems to me, provided a great service to my countrymen. As a result, not only those ignorant of the Greek language, but the learned also think that they have found some assistance both in learning and, and in making decisions. I think he's referring there to, in some ways he's. Does he see himself as making those thinkers more accessible like his, he's, he's become a conduit of the Greeks. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Yeah. That seems plausible to me. Yeah. [00:27:12] Speaker A: Which I think is interesting. One of the things that for those of you who've never read Cicero before, if you start to read him, he does have a little bit of off putting vanity at times. It's more so in his letters to, especially to his best friend Atticus. And, and there's, there's, there's plenty of times where I'm just like, just get over yourself, man. Especially for those of you who don't know Cicero in, in, in Latin, it means, it's a nickname. It means chickpea. How you Know, how arrogant can you be when your nickname is chicken chickpea? [00:27:51] Speaker B: So anyways, I, I was thinking, yes. It's one of the legends that, legends of Babe Ruth was that he'd said once, it's not bragging if you can do it. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:02] Speaker B: You really are a man of magnificent quality. Well, you may as well tell everybody and act like it. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:11] Speaker A: Well, shall we go on to, to part two here? When I say part two, by the way, I, I may. I, I, you know, in this version, I'll say, like maybe paragraph one or paragraph two. This Cambridge text, they, they mark the numbers of sections. They're not exactly paragraphs because remember, chapters in the intro. [00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah, they do. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Okay. Which is, you know, a chapter is with, with Cicero, it's one long sentence and you never get to the verb. But at least in Latin. And then. Yeah, they're not individual paragraphs. Plus, remember, in Latin, it's all, there's no punctuation. I think this is still true in Cicero's time. It's just all one long block of text. Right. So that thankfully, we don't have to deal with that. I'll continue. And you again, Cicero, talking to Marcus. And you will certainly learn from the leading philosopher of our present generation, and you will go on doing so for as long as you like. You ought, of course, to want to learn for as long as you are not dissatisfied with your progress. However, my writings do not differ greatly from those of the Peripatetics, for we both want to be Socratics and Platonists. Chris, Peripatetic is not a word that we use all the time. Maybe you could enlighten us. When he says that he doesn't differ greatly from the Peripatetics, is he simply saying he's an Aristotelian, or is it more complicated than that? [00:29:39] Speaker B: I would take it as meaning approximately in the tradition of Aristotle. I mean, we should keep in mind here, you know, it's been three centuries. It's been a long period of time from, you know, classical, you know, Plato, Socrates, antiquity, to his own time. So I just read it as being, yeah, sort of follower of Socrates, of that peripatetic tradition, philosophy, by walking around philosophy of the Peripatos, the, the covered porch. Not, not the porch, the, the walkway. So I don't have a more, more dedicated read on it than that. [00:30:16] Speaker A: The porch are the Stoics, right? They're the ones that's what Stoic they were. [00:30:19] Speaker B: The Stoa, the porch. And the parapatos is like the covered Walkway or the sort of the pergola, I think, type structure. [00:30:25] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:30:26] Speaker B: If I get this wrong, people can correct us in the comments, I'm sure. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent going on. When you read them, therefore, you must use your own judgment about the content, for I shall not prevent that. You will at least acquire a richer style of Latin prose by reading my work. I would not like it to be thought that I say this arrogantly, for I grant that many men, many others, surpass my knowledge of philosophy. And if, when I have devoted the best part of my life to oratory, I then claim for myself what is proper to an orator, that I speak suitably and clearly and elegantly, I seem to have some right to lay such a claim. I think one thing that's important here is this is actually part of education. When I'm teaching my children, I'm not just teaching them stuff. Here's a bunch of information. Download it and carry it with you. We're. In a very basic sense, we're always teaching them how to talk. Right. And by the way, to a point, that's annoying. I don't know how. How you've experienced this, but sometimes my children talk like me back to me. That needs to stop sometimes. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Yeah, your children are younger than mine, but absolutely, that's. [00:31:32] Speaker A: That's. [00:31:33] Speaker B: That's 100% the case. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Or you find in, you know, I'm. I'm in my 30s, late 30s, and so there's times where I find I catch myself like I just sounded just like my dad. Right. [00:31:45] Speaker B: That. That intensifies as you get older, too. [00:31:47] Speaker A: It does, really? Okay. [00:31:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:31:50] Speaker A: And so it's not just that he's teaching Marcus Latin. Cicero is becoming the. The mental furniture for his son. And he's like, I. I think you could do worse, but. And you might be able to do better. But I. I think I'm doing you a favor, Marcus, by. By continuing to talk to you at a distance here. His Latin prose. [00:32:14] Speaker B: Right. Well, certainly also he mentions his. His particular virtue. Says others know more about philosophy than I do. And you're probably studying with them if you're studying in Athens, you know, the center of. Center of the philosophical world. But I can claim for myself what is proper to an orator. So I've succeeded at oratory and all the power that comes with oratory, all the high office and what is appropriate to me that I should speak suitably, clearly, and elegantly. So it's not arrogant for me to purport to teach you like this. This is my lane. This is What I do really, really well. And so here it is. He's sort of putting his own. His own skill, his own virtue, his own excellence alongside philosophical and intellectual excellence and making a claim on his son's attention and on our attention as well. [00:33:06] Speaker A: Right. And as I understand it, you know, back then they're, you know, oratory is a major piece of their education right there. When he's a kid, he's gonna. He's going to be learning, specifically oratory, because it is oratory that is going to get you somewhere, Right. Not everyone can read, but everyone can listen to you talk. And so if you're going to influence things, and not just in politics and in governance, but also in business, in teaching, and if you're going to go into the religious offices of some kind, there's a lot to be said about back then, that is the medium by which you communicate. Therefore you better be good at it, right? [00:33:48] Speaker B: He was, you might also say, this is the one area where you might say, Socrates was lacking, whether deliberately or inadvertently, he wasn't able to acquire political power, something that Plato and Aristotle both struggle with in the aftermath of the life of Socrates. And so here's Cicero saying, look, I have a proven track record of success in injustice. I can speak well. I can bring philosophy into the public arena, into politics. I can fight for what's good. And a lot of his advice about virtue is going to be about that. Fighting for what's good, doing justice, preventing injustice, selecting the honorable and courageous path, rather than being a kind of brainy intellectual in the ivory tower, as we'd say in our own time, who neglects those things in the interest of pure intellectual study. Yeah. [00:34:43] Speaker A: Let's go on to chapter three, then, as it's called. I strongly urge you, therefore, my dear Cicero, assiduously to read not only my speeches, but also the philosophical works which are now almost equal to them. The language is more forceful in the former, but the calm and restrained style of the latter ought also to be cultivated. Furthermore, I see that it has not happened to this day that the same Greek has labored in both fields, or pursuing both forensic oratory and also the other quieter sort of debating, perhaps Demetrius of Phalerum can be counted as doing so. A man of precise argument and an orator, who, though not over vigorous, spoke so pleasantly that you can recognize him as a pupil of Theophrastus. I think you can say that my achievement in either field is for others to judge, but there's no doubt that I have pursued them both. Now, that's interesting. And that kind of gets to. What you're saying is for Socrates, he wasn't as good at one of them, you know, was Socrates giving speeches? Yeah, he's contrasting. He's like, you need to read my speeches and my philosophical works. What do you think is the importance there? Because he's basically saying that he seems to think that's unique to him, that he's good at both. Right. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Well, I would say I'm coming off of this as somebody who teaches Plato's apology to college students and to high school students on a regular basis. And of course, one of the famous things that said towards the end of the first speech of apology is that a good man would be killed if he went into politics. And so a good man should do good privately. And that seems to be exactly the Socratic doctrine that Cicero is rejecting. And he's holding up his whole life as evidence of the need for it to be rejected. So if you're going to be a philosopher and you're going to be a good man, you need to gird your loins, enter the public arena, learn the truth and learn goodness and honor, and also learn how to speak persuasively and eloquently. And I think this is one of the things that makes Cicero a model for men like the founding Fathers. Right. Arguably, he's a philosopher. He's wise, he's brilliant, he's self disciplined, but he's also successful. Right. He's able to actually acquire and wield power. And it doesn't corrupt him. It does lead him perhaps to his death, to an early death at the hands of inferior men. But if Cicero is to be admired, in a sense, it puts the lie, at least in his place and time, to that Socratic conviction that power and power and truth, power and truth seeking would seem to move in opposite directions. And I know there's a tremendous amount of scholarship on that. I'm coming at this from a sort of beginner's perspective for the benefit of some of our readers and listeners. But I think that's absolutely. Part of what he has in mind is that my authority comes from not just my intellect, but also my oratory, my ability to speak persuasively and to combine those things, to synthesize them into my. My intellectual identity. [00:37:47] Speaker A: It's such a different way of thinking than today as well, you compare it to today, where if a philosopher, you know, if you go into public, if you were to pursue public office. Right. Which I, again, I, I mean, I just as someone who cares about you. I'm like, please don't ever do that, Chris. And you've never suggested you would. I don't want to. But again, there's also, like Cicero would think that's, that's. That reflects poorly on us. Right. If we're good men. I am not claiming such a thing. Then shouldn't. Ought we to seek power, to wield it justly? Right. Should we be afraid of power? Is there something more noble to avoid it? To say no. Right. And I think Cicero is saying, well, look, if you can cultivate the virtues, you should go for this. You shouldn't just. Just hide and be escapist. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:39] Speaker A: It's not the philosopher king's job to immigrant. I don't think he's not referring to himself as that, but he is. He is suggesting that our modern. We'll call it small D. Democratic aversion to the pursuit of power and office and our belief that anyone who does it is somehow corrupt and bad. That that is misplaced. [00:39:02] Speaker B: And I think this is again, looking ahead quite a bit, but maybe 20 pages or so when he comes to talk about justice, he's going to specifically call out the Platonic philosopher king and say he commits a certain kind of injustice by withholding his wisdom and talents and ability from the public arena, by preferring the intellectual and the abstract to doing, you know, good, noble, honorable deeds for the benefit of the. Of the republic. In a way that he's being unjust. And he's very specific, calling out Plato in books 6 and 7 of Republic and that vision of what intellectual excellence means. So I think that he's going to come with some sharp knives for at least parts of the philosophical tradition that he's inherited that many of us would be familiar with. So something to look forward to as well. Yeah. [00:39:51] Speaker A: It also gets back to the point that Cicero is not just Plato in Latin. I think there's some people that treat him that way, which is ridiculous. This is a great example in which he's already starting to distinguish himself from. From there. Let's finish this episode with chapter four. I certainly think that Plato, if he wanted to try his hand at forensic oratory, would have been able to speak weightly and expansively. Conversely, if Demosthenes had held on the things he learned from Plato and had wanted to articulate them, he could have done so elegantly and with brilliance. I make the same judgment about Aristotle and Isocrates, each because he so enjoyed his own pursuit, despised the other one. Now, when I had decided to write something for you, at the present time and much more in the future. I very much wanted to begin with something which was preeminently suitable to your age and to my authority. Many weighty and beneficial matters in philosophy have been discussed accurately and expansively by philosophers. However, it is their teachings and their advice on the question of duties that seem to have the widest application. For no part of life, neither public affairs nor private, neither in the forum nor at home, neither when acting on your own nor in dealings with another, can be free from duty. Everything that is honorable in life, in a life, depends upon its cultivation and everything dishonorable upon its neglect. I'll come to that last sentence in a minute, but I have to disagree with him here. He would say that Aristotle would be good at being able to speak. Well, I just, I can't see it. I mean, Aristotle again. I, I, I, I, I mentioned this to you privately. There's been times in my life where I thought to myself, dang it, Aristotle, you're right again. Which gets on my nerves as a Protestant in particular. But there's, there's, there's, there's lots of times where I'm thinking about. I don't, I just don't think Aristotle would have been a good public speaker. But if I'm not mistaken, what we have of his writings is. Are they class notes that Aristotle write, or are they essentially lecture notes that were transcribed? [00:41:56] Speaker B: My understanding is that they were assembled from the notes of his students. But again, I'm not an expert on that area. I do know that I think Cicero had access to more of the Aristotelian corpus than we possess. I had heard somebody told me once that Cicero had been able to read some of Aristotle's dialogues, so he may have a greater sense of him as a stylist than we have now. We only have about one third of Aristotle's total writings. [00:42:19] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair. And let's look at the way he ends here, which I think is, I think is really strong, strong state. I'm going to read it again. However, it is their teachings, the teachings of the philosophers and their advice on the question of duties that seem to have the widest application for no part of life, neither public affairs nor private, neither in the forum nor at home, neither when acting on your own nor in dealings with another can be free from duty. Everything that is honorable in a life depends upon its cultivation, everything dishonorable upon its neglect. He's giving, he's giving a very, very broad scope to the concept of duty. He's not Leaving anything out. He's saying, look, you can't escape this. You have to deal with this. You cannot run from it. You can't hide from it. And just in, in the, the philosophic life is not an escape, right? You, you have got to make a decision and do what is honorable and avoid what is dishonorable. And so you need to understand, understand duty. And what I don't, and I can't think of off the top of my head is in this ancient Greek and Roman context is, you know, where do we see the word duty show up in places like Plato and Aristotle or something similar? Is this a topic that came up maybe in a different color, different shade before him? [00:43:48] Speaker B: That's a good question. I'm trying to think of exactly where the word duty occurs in some of the major ethical writings of Plato and Aristotle. I was actually looking at page Roman numeral 45 in this text, which has a bit of a glossary in it about the translation. The, the word translated here as duty is officium, right? Of course, the title de officis, right, Meaning duty, dutiful service. But one of the things they note in the paragraph about the translation is that sometimes the closest translation for it is responsibilities. So you have certain responsibilities, certain duties that are owed to you that you owe to the public by virtue of your office or to your fellow man by virtue of your, your talents, your abilities, your situation. And so to, to be ethical, in a sense, is to do your duty. It's to do. It's not, not in a sort of Kantian sense that it's, it's sort of obligatory upon you in, in some sort of universal sense, but that it's, it's fallen to you to do this thing. And if you don't do it, it won't be done and it won't be done well. And a good man, right? A, A, an honorable man is a man who's able to do his duty. And I think that's the sense in which he means duty touches every element of life. You have responsibilities in every element of life. If you behave honorably well, if you are excellent, you will be a dutiful man. And if you fail in any way do something shameful, it's because you failed in some regard to do what is demanded of you. [00:45:16] Speaker A: Right? And I think that notion of office too is really important. We think of that. Yes. On the one hand, we use the word office that we have an office, right? Maybe you're elected to it or appointed to it. That's your Job. I get the sense that he has a more expansive understanding here where it's not just that you have a job, but that you, you have a purpose. You know, almost, you know, coming later to the Christian notion of, you know, some are appointed to be teachers and pastors and elders and deacons and prayer, you know, prayer warriors doesn't use that phrase in the Bible. But there's, there's different roles in the church as well, and you have a responsibility to fulfill that role. I don't think Cicero is giving God or any form a deity the responsibility for assigning those responsibilities. I could be wrong there, but there certainly is a sense in which we each have certain responsibilities by virtue of who we have relationships with, the place that we find ourselves in, the tradition. We're part of the country, we're part of the skills we have. And this is, of course, is in deep contrast to today where the focus is so much on our individual rights. Again, I have nothing, I have nothing against rights, but that's not the full story. Right. I think there's the sense of a duty. It actually. One of the things that's interesting when I was teaching law was the, you know, let's say you see someone on the sidewalk who has just passed out, just had a hard heart attack. You. Could someone sue you for not stopping to help them? In many instances, the answer is no. That even though you do have a. I mean, I think you have a moral obligation, a duty as a human person to help someone that is in distress. There's. Our law is at times ambivalent in terms of whether or not you have a duty to help someone, which is striking. I mean, that would be very, very different than what Cicero is talking about here, this notion of duties. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think plainly duties and responsibilities are tied in with relationships. So the question would be, for every duty, what sort of relationship is this duty embedded in? Is it my duty as a father, towards my children, as a colleague, towards a fellow colleague, towards a fellow citizen? What unites us? Well, what's the sort of social bond here? This seems very Roman in its orientation. And so what is a duty for me will not be a duty for you because you lack the same kind of relatedness or not towards the same people. So one of the things that might help us to untangle sort of modern sort of flatter assumption of ethical duty, where we imagine that each of us is sort of a largely morally identical moral actor with certain kind of obligations that we have to sort of check off, make sure that we're following the rules. And I look at the man bloody on the sidewalk or heart attack victim on the sidewalk and say, well, you know, does. Is there a rule that compels me to help him? Right. That would compel anybody to help him. Instead I would say, you know, how am I related to this person as a. As a brother Christian or as, you know, fellow child of God or as a fellow citizen or as, you know, a member of etc. Etc. I think to bring the social in very early in terms of ethical duty rather than to make it a matter of sort of, you know, am I required to. By some abstract principle or some principle of, of human nature that's quite impersonal to me and to the object. The person who's the object of my action. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, as much as Cicero is, Is credited, is attached to the idea of natural law, he's not appealing to that here, right. For the moment, because he is. He's appealing to those relationships right, in. In private. He says in private. But he also says in the. In the forum, in. On your own dealings with one another. Right. You can't, you can't escape this duty. And so I think that's a really important insight. Well, Chris, what do you think? Do you think that's a. That that's a good place to stop for episode number one? [00:49:23] Speaker B: I think it's great. I think we're on page three. We've come a ways and we've had a great deal to say. Honestly, I think we're, you know, we've. We've laid some good groundwork for what we're going to do. Good place to stop here. [00:49:35] Speaker A: Excellent. Well, folks, I hope you've enjoyed this first episode. We're going to keep going, so please tune in for the next episode. Be sure to keep. If you have a copy or get your own copy of on duties, you can keep reading. With us. Again, we recommend this particular translation. There are free versions online. Not that translation, but you can find other free versions online. I specifically would recommend heading over to the online Library of Liberty, published by Liberty Fund. They have some great resources and there's many, many others online. We'll see you next time.