Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hello.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome back to the On Duties podcast, a production of the Ciceronian Society. We are reading through Cicero's classic work On Duties, chapter by chapter, every Wednesday throughout 2026. We hope you'll subscribe to this channel or follow this podcast if you are interested. If you're just hearing us for the first, you might like to go back and begin with episode one. This is episode 12. We are partway through book one of On Duties, ready to begin Cicero's discussion of greatness, of spirit.
I'm Chris Anadale. I teach philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University in Emmitsburg, Maryland. I also have a small YouTube channel where I post philosophy videos. I'm joined by my two co hosts, Ethan and Ben. Would you care to introduce yourself, gentlemen? Ethan?
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Yes. My name is Ethan Alexander Davy. I teach political theory and constitutional law at Campbell University in Buis Creek, N.C. and one of my courses is on ancient political thought.
And Cicero makes an appearance in that course.
[00:01:17] Speaker C: Well, thank you, Chris, for the invitation to be here. I'm grateful to be here. I teach political science at Abilene Christian University and I teach American politics, political theory, research methods courses. I teach an ancient political theory course where we read the Republic and the laws by Cicero.
And so I'm excited to dive into On Duties.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Great. Well, we have just finished up with with chapter 60 in a previous episode, so why don't we begin today? Ethan, let's have you read chapter 61. And Ben, I'll give you a first comment on that. Let's go ahead.
We are on page 25 of the Cambridge edition of Cicero's On Duties.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: We have laid it down that the source of what is honorable and dutiful is of four kinds. But we must realize that it is. We must realize it is that which is done with a great and lofty spirit, one disdaining human affairs, which appears in the most brilliant light. For that reason words such as these are so readily available as an insult.
You young men show a womanly spirit that maiden a man's or these Son of Salamis, Neither sweat nor sacrifice secured you your spoils.
When, however, it is a matter of praising, it is deeds done with a great spirit, courageously, outstandingly, which seem for some reason to wrest from us fulsome praise. Hence Marathon, Salamis, Plataea, Thermopylae, Leuctra, have become battlefields for orators.
Hence also our own Horatius, Cocles, the Deci, or Deci, Cneius and Publius Scipio, Marcus Marcellus, and countless others and above all, the Roman people itself are notable for their greatness of spirit. The very fact that the statues we look upon are usually in military dress bears witness to our devotion to military glory.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: Well, this is a very interesting. I mean, I think just to maybe remember, he mentions the four kinds of sources of our duties, right?
And so there's the search for truth, then there are the duties that relate to the bonds of human fellowship, so justice and liberality. And now we're coming to greatness of spiritual. And I believe the next is sort.
[00:03:48] Speaker D: Of temperance or self control.
[00:03:49] Speaker C: But this is an interesting one because immediately you get a little bit of a clue, I think, with where Cicero.
[00:03:55] Speaker D: Is going, because he says this one.
[00:03:58] Speaker C: Shines the most brightly, right? It has the most brilliant light. And so there's something very sort of, you know, attractive about military glory, as was one kind of potent example of what he's talking about. But this, this. This loftiness, greatness of spirit, the. The phrase that's really interesting to me is. Is the one that where he follows in his immediate description, his initial description.
[00:04:25] Speaker D: Is it's a spirit that disdains human affairs.
[00:04:29] Speaker C: So on the one hand, it seems utterly connected with, like, the most human of affairs, right? Military glory, you know, achievement, clear victory.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:38] Speaker C: And. And at the same time, it's a spirit that disdains human affairs, too. So I think it's a really interesting.
Brilliant, but also detached, but also courageous. There's an interesting thing going on here.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I remember talking with Josh Bowman in an early episode about this idea of disdain or contempt for what is human or what is merely human. And I wondered. My own thinking was that perhaps the way in which the general, the military hero, right, Thermopylae and other battles are mentioned, shows greatness of spirit, is that he's willing to die. He's willing to say, my life itself is nothing compared to the greatness of the deeds that I will do. And we'll look at that kind of activity, an action that's activated by that kind of attitude towards one's life and everything in it. And we'll say, wow, what a mensch, right?
That's a man who is most excellent, who is curious to hear him say, here, for some reason, this wins from us the highest praise. Well, it does because it's the most dramatic, it's the most excellent, it's the most stand up and cheer. It sort of speaks to the spirit and the observer who wants to praise it all the more highly, we would think the same deed done without greatness of spirit. Or with a sort of moderation of spirit.
Very good. But it's not standing ovation. Good. If you know what I mean. Ethan, would you like to add to that?
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Yes, I think that's right. The human affairs that are being disdained here are those that are less brilliant than military glory. And so making money and doing all these other things that people do are less impressive than the glory that one can win in battle. But also, as Ben said, and I think, as you said as well, Chris, that there's also the possibility that there's a temptation involved here, that there's something that's too attractive about this that can lead us astray.
[00:06:37] Speaker C: Can I make one additional point, Chris?
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Please.
[00:06:40] Speaker C: It's interesting also that he says these battles and these heroes, you know, military examples of military glory become battlefields for orators.
[00:06:48] Speaker D: Right.
[00:06:49] Speaker C: And so they kind of provide the source material for people like him. Right. Who are primarily distinguished by their. Their oratory. And they are kind of almost, you know, they have to give credit where it's due. Right. They have to give, you know, honor and glory Right to where it's due.
Whereas as we keep hinting, you know, I think, as Ethan just said, we can see that there's. There's also a dark side to this, to this military glory.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that takes us to the beginning of chapter 62, 62 and 63, I think, kind of run together. So, Ben, why don't you read both of those for us, please?
[00:07:28] Speaker D: Certainly.
However, if the loftiness of spirit that reveals itself amid danger and toil is empty of justice, if it fights not for the common safety but for its own advantages, it is a vice. It is not merely unvirtuous. It is rather a savagery which repels all civilized feeling. Therefore, the Stoics define courage well when they call it the virtue which fights.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: On behalf of fairness.
[00:07:56] Speaker D: For that reason, no one has won praise who has pursued the glory of courage by treachery and cunning. For nothing can be honorable from which justice is absent. Therefore, Plato's words are splendid knowledge. He said, if separated from justice, should indeed be termed craftiness rather than wisdom.
But furthermore, a spirit which is ready to face danger but is driven by selfish desire rather than the common benefit should be called not courage, but audacity. Therefore we require men who are brave and of great spirit also to be good and straightforward friends of truth, and not in the least deceitful. Such are the central qualities for which justice is praised.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Wow. Thank you, Ben.
I'll take first comment here on. On these two Chapters where do we find loftiness of spirit? We. We find that it absolutely must be in the presence of justice. There can be no greatness, no great deeds can be done if they are not just so similar to some of his writings about friendship, where friendship must be between good men, between just men.
We would say not only is the.
Where the great deeds are done not for the common good and not for justice, and not out of fairness, but it's opposite thinking perhaps here of some of his contemporaries in the dying republic, it is not only falls short of virtue, but is a vice and savagery, right? So we would not praise anyone as great spirited and courageous who uses treachery and cunning. So there's this need to always be associated with the good, right? So the best in man, the best sort of the spiritual or sort of great souledness of us always needs to be oriented towards what is good. There's no way of separating these things and praising the sort of the great spiritedness of the wicked. No praise for treachery or for cunning or for deeds that are done that are accomplished in that way. So very anti Machiavelli. To bring in another modern thinker whom we've consistently contrasted with Cicero. Ethan, would you like to continue?
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Yes. Right.
We've seen this line before when we were talking about liberality, right? Liberality is good, but not without justice. If liberality is without justice, then it is not good. And so it's the same thing with the greatness of soul, that if it is done not for the common good, but to serve the selfish desire of him who wants to make himself first, then it is no longer a good thing. So justice is the measure by which these other virtues are.
Are assessed.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Ben?
[00:10:56] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too.
It's also interesting towards the end of chapter 63, truth also has to be that first original virtue of the search for truth also has to discipline this impulse toward loftiness of spirit. And so, I mean, I think, to back up, I mean, loftiness of spirit, it's the most brilliant. He said it's the most.
You know, and it naturally attracts men of, you know, larger than life kinds of people, right? People who are of great ambition and competence. And it's a worthy prize, right? It's something that people respond to and it makes sense, but it also sort of tends to maybe push people into. It might tend to also push people into cunning and treachery. Being like the fox and not like the lion, right. You know, and so it tends to come along with temptations toward other.
Not only. It's interesting, he says, not only vices, but instances of beastliness. Right.
[00:11:57] Speaker D: Savagery.
[00:11:58] Speaker C: Where you're actually behaving below the level of a human being. As it's appropriate to behave for a.
[00:12:03] Speaker D: Human being or a civilized human being at least.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Right. Right.
Why don't I take. The next chapter is 64.
It is a hateful act that. I'm sorry. A hateful fact that loftiness and greatness of spirit all too easily give birth to willfulness and an excessive desire for preeminence. We find in Plato that all the conduct of the Spartans was inflamed by desire for conquest.
Similarly, the more outstanding an individual is in greatness of spirit, the more he desires complete pre. Eminence. Or rather to be the sole ruler.
But when you desire to surpass all others, it is difficult to respect the fairness that is a special mark of justice.
Consequently, such men allow themselves to be defeated neither by argument nor by any public or legal obligation.
Only too often do they emerge in public life as bribers and agitators, seeking to acquire as much wealth as possible, preferring violent preeminences. Eminence. To equality through justice.
The greater the difficulty, however, the greater the splendor. There is no occasion from which justice should be absent.
I'm going to read 65 as well, if you guys don't mind.
It is not, therefore, those who inflict injury, but those who prevent it. Whom we should consider the men of courage and great spirit. A true and wise greatness of spirit judges that deeds and not glory are the basis of the honorableness that nature most seeks.
It prefers not to seem preeminent but to be so. So it prefers not to seem preeminent but to be so.
He who is carried by the foolishness of the ignorant mob should not be counted a great man.
Furthermore, the loftier a man's spirit, the more easily he is driven by desire for glory to injustice. This is slippery ground indeed. Scarcely a man can be found who.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: When.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: When he has undertaken toil and confronted dangers, does not yearn for glory as a kind of payment for his achievements.
Ethan.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Yes. So there's a lot going on in this section here. And I think this is one of those moments that's very polemical. So we have essentially two forms of government being commented on here.
The one is essentially a kind of aristocracy, the aristocracy of the Senate. Men who are more or less equal in their virtue and capability.
And so that's what he's referring to when he speaks of the fairness that is the mark of justice.
You could think back to Aristotle, who says that if there is one man who is really so superior in virtue to all others, then maybe he should be absolute ruler. But where that does not exist, those men of virtue should share the power among themselves. And that is the model that Cicero is defending here. And on the other side, you have those men who think that they are the best and want to compete to become sole ruler. And the way they do that is by bribing the mob, by offering to the people, the common people bred in circuses, in exchange for an alliance against the aristocrats. So I think that's the political subtext to this passage here. And of course, it's a question of principle as well, that for Cicero, the better form of government is the one in which men of virtue share power, as opposed to the one man who wants to be the first and is willing to do anything to get and maintain that position.
[00:16:02] Speaker C: I'm just to add to that, I'm thinking that, I mean, again, back to the idea that loftiness of spirit disdains, you know, the things, you know, the. The affairs of life, or I'm forgetting the exact disdaining human affairs. Right. And so, in fact, rightly disciplined loftiness of spirit seeks to do great deeds.
But not, in fact, it's not about the praise that you'll receive for those great deeds. It's actually about the quality of the deed discharge, the intrinsic goodness that our nature is actually seeking to fulfill our duties.
And so we have to kind of make sure we're disciplined. I think that's also a kind of callback to Plato's Republic, right? Where it's just because you can and you have the power to enforce your will upon others, to be the sole preeminent person in the polis or the republic, you in fact, ought to do things that are accord with justice. And so I think there's a really interesting thing going on here about both the sort of brilliance and the danger.
[00:17:14] Speaker D: Of this notion of loftiness of spirit.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Right. Well, let me ask you guys, perhaps this is too obvious to need comment that Cicero is obviously polemicizing here as well, against Caesar and Antony and other men who are sort of grappling to be the top man in the polity. So this is clearly directed at anyone who would subvert the equality and the equal virtue of the Senate and slippery ground, very easy to slide even with the best of intentions, from seeking glory to doing injustice. That that clearly is here as well.
[00:17:53] Speaker C: I think that's right. And I also, you Know, to take it one step further, I think, you know, he was praised or sort of giving their due to the people who achieve military glory and who are. Have this obvious. This loftiness of spirit that is obvious to everybody. But he is going to, at times, throughout on duty, say, hey, my contribution was.
Was pretty great too.
[00:18:14] Speaker D: Right.
[00:18:14] Speaker C: And I worked through oratory.
[00:18:16] Speaker D: Right. And I worked through the Senate.
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Right. I, you know, worked through being collegial.
[00:18:22] Speaker D: And treating people with equal justice.
[00:18:24] Speaker C: Right. And so I do think he's kind.
[00:18:25] Speaker D: Of playing this long.
[00:18:26] Speaker C: Making this long contrast with people like Caesar and Antony and the way he has conducted himself to sort of obtain glory.
[00:18:33] Speaker D: The right way.
[00:18:34] Speaker C: Right, That's.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: That's right. Of course. And he has mentioned already Sulla and Caesar by name with these kinds of criticisms. And, of course, there's the whole set of orations, the philippics against Antony. So, yes, he very much has those men in mind as the ones who are truckling with the mob to undermine the authority of the Senate, and men who were not content with military glory itself, but they wanted everything. They want him to be the top man in the entire Republic with respect to everything.
Caesar himself declared himself not only dictator in perpetuity, but also Divus Invictus, invincible God. You are to view me as a God. That's where the deification of the emperors begins, with Caesar.
Right. He's very much criticizing their.
Their ambition and their unrestrained ambition.
Very good.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: We are at chapter 66. Ethan, would you please read 66 and 67 for us?
[00:19:53] Speaker A: A brave and great spirit is in general seen in two things. One lies in disdain for things external, in the conviction that a man should admire, should choose, should pursue nothing except what is honorable and seemly, and should yield to no man, nor to agitation of the spirit, nor to fortune. The second thing is that you should, in the spirit I have described, do deeds which are great, certainly, but above all beneficial, and you should vigorously undertake difficult and laborious tasks which endanger both life itself and much that concerns life.
All the splendor, the grandeur, that, I may add, the benefit of the two lie in the matter sorry of the two lie in the latter. The cause of the reason behind the greatness of men, however, is in the former.
That is, the factor that makes men outstanding in spirit and contemptuous of human things.
And in fact, this reveals itself in two ways.
First, if you judge to be good only that which is honorable. And second, if your spirit is free from every agitation, for it must be held that a brave and great spirit will little value things that appear to most men distinguished and even splendid, disdaining them with reason, firm and steady, while a man of firm spirit and great constancy will endure circumstances that seem harsh, many and various as they are in the lives and fortunes of mankind, without departing from man's natural state, from the worthy standing of a wise man.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Ben, what do you say?
[00:21:32] Speaker C: I suppose I would mainly say that this strikes me as Cicero at his most stoic, right? I mean, he said, I like a lot of the things the Stoics have to say. I'm not going to always agree with them, but they say a lot of good things. And this strikes me as Cicero channeling this kind of firmness, steadiness, seeking things that are beneficial and honorable.
But again, here's this.
We see a little more reflection on this notion of disdain for human affairs, being to the point of, as you said, as you use the language, Chris, of contempt for human things. It's just they are not what I'm going to.
We're going to dictate my actions and my attempts to fulfill my duties, and so I'm going to seek to do things that are evidence of loftiness of spirit. But the sort of first element of that is constancy in trying to do things that are honorable and are of benefit.
[00:22:42] Speaker B: Right? And I'll add here that my notes on these chapters involve, of course, two things we're given in chapter 66.
You can see a brave spirit in two ways.
In his contempt or disdain for external things, his love of honor alone, right? And so nothing, not even his own life, matters to him as much as doing the excellent deed.
And the second thing is the doing deeds that are great, beneficial and risky, right? Things that involve you risking all that you have up to and including your life. So if you're a cautious man, if you're a prudent man in the sort of modern sense, if you pull back from risking more than is really than you can afford to lose, you're not a man of great spirit. But then he follows it up in the next chapter by saying, the splendor and grandeur and benefit is in the latter, is in the doing of the great deeds.
But the root, the cause and the reason of greatness is in the former, is in the fact, the sort of deeper fact in your spirit that you utterly disdain the loss of these things. You love honor so much that nothing else matters to you, as it were.
Ethan, does that anything to add or contradict there?
[00:24:09] Speaker A: I think that's all right. I think what I would add Is that in the previous paragraphs he has been explaining what greatness of spirit looks like when it goes off the rails. And here he's trying to give us greatness of spirit properly understood. So greatness of spirit is done the right way when one does nothing except what is honorable and seemly, when one has decorum. So that's another virtue that we're going to discuss later on.
And one yields to no man, and one doesn't yield to agitation of the spirit or fortune. So those are the virtues recommended by the Stoics. But for a man to have greatness of spirit in the proper way, it has to be combined with these other things, with these other other habits and other virtues.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Excellent, Ben. Let me ask you to conclude this episode by reading chapter 68 and let's say the first half of chapter 69.
[00:25:13] Speaker D: Certainly it is not consistent for a man who is not broken by fear to be broken by desires, Nor for one who has proved himself unconquered by toil to be conquered by pleasure.
Therefore you must avoid these and shun also the desire for money.
Nothing is more the mark of a mean and petty spirit than to love riches. Nothing more honorable and more magnificent than to despise money if you are without it, but if you have it, to devote it to liberality and beneficence. Beware also the desire for glory, as I have said, for it destroys the liberty for which men of great spirit ought to be in competition.
Nor should you seek military commands. In fact, sometimes these should be refused and sometimes even resigned. We must empty ourselves of every agitation of the spirit. Desire and fear, of course, but also sorrow and excessive pleasure and anger in order to gain that tranquillity of spirit, that freedom from care which ensures both constancy and standing.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Very good.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Thank you, Ben.
Of course, here. The last words here sound again, Cicero. Very, very Stoic. Right. What we're looking for is inner tranquility, which will give you the ability to adopt this attitude of lofty contempt or disdain for the concerns of the general run of the human race, people who are concerned with these things. And he's begun by noting the lesser threats. We might say these are the kind of minor players in the moral life. But still, a man who won't be broken by fear, he should not sort of fall into the smaller pit of valuing desire. Falling into the pit of desire or pleasure or money specifically calls out.
The mark of a small souled man is that he's grasping for riches. He's very.
So what does a great spirit of man do. He throws it to the wind. He's liberal in the best sense, right? He gives it away out of the sort of magnificence of spirit to show how little it matters to him compared to the small souled man.
So he also puts glory into this category. The desire for glory can become this kind of petty thing into which the great spirited man can fall.
Ethan, continue.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Yes, sir. What occurs to me with this description of.
Again, this is another description of the right sort of statesman, the gentleman who knows how to govern.
And it just struck me in looking at these characteristics that he describes, he's describing all of the characteristics that our 21st century ruling class do not have.
Lacking this petty spirit and love of riches, are members of congress who engage in insider trading and all these other things.
And this lack of this control of one's temper, expressing oneself correctly in public, all of the characteristics that our ruling class do not have because they have not been trained in that, nor did they know that that's how a ruler should behave. That's what occurs to me.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: Ben.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: I think just kind of the double negative in the very first sentence here.
[00:28:39] Speaker D: It is not consistent for a man who is not broken by fear to be broken by desires, right? So you, if you're a person who's.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: Of great spirit, you know, fears maybe won't be your first problem. You're willing to face danger, right? You're willing to disdain, you know, human affairs and even to give your life. But there are these other snares that can kind of turn you into a, you know, he's the love of money in particular, the mark of a mean and petty spirit, right? It's like you, you kind of can, your greatness of spirit can be kind of soiled by attraction to these more mundane, lower level pleasure, money, these kinds of things.
And I do think it's, as you both mentioned, just introducing this concept of liberty, which is not, as we might think of it a lot of times in a kind of million sense or a Hayekian sense. The idea of freedom from constraint, from external factors.
It's a freedom of soul, right? A freedom that your soul is not governed by these mean and petty desires. And so if you don't have them, you're just fine, right? And, or money in particular. If you don't have money, you're just fine.
If you do have money, you're liberal with it, as you mentioned, and so you can, you're able to withstand any situation. I mean, we can actually hear, you know, language like this from the Apostle Paul, Right. I've learned to be content in every situation, right?
[00:30:10] Speaker D: Whether I have little or much.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: And, you know, and so I know that if I should work and if I can work so that I can give to others, if I, you know, have it. But if not, I've learned to be content, right? And so obviously from a different sort of motivation. It's not from our own loftiness of.
[00:30:29] Speaker D: Spirit necessarily, but from our trust in Christ.
[00:30:32] Speaker C: But there is an interesting connection here with the kind of freedom that Cicero is saying is available. And actually people of great spirit ought to be. This is the kind of liberty ought.
[00:30:42] Speaker D: To be competing for.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.
It would be excellent, I think, maybe later for us to try to contrast this kind of great spirited freedom with the humility of the Christian, with the sort of having perhaps the possibility of being great, but then also like, you know, one of the saintly kings, you know, giving it up. So let me ask an exit question, if I might. We might think of great spiritedness, especially in the classical sense, in the pagan sense, as being associated with ambition and with glory and with the desire to be human, sort of on the grandest, most magnificent, most public scale.
And yet here, Cicero, in this kind of Stoic way, is saying that at the heart of that is this tranquility of the Spirit, this freedom from all anxiety, or what's the word that he uses here? The overcoming any kind of agitation of the spirit. Agitation, that's the a word I was looking for. The spirit shouldn't be agitated and busy and rushing about. It should be so sort of above it all that it scarcely notices the loss that might be associated with one's worldly things, with great deeds. Is he sort of moving towards a kind of spiritual core of the sort of great activities of man. What do you two think of that?
[00:32:07] Speaker A: Well, perhaps in moving in that direction, although I think for Cicero, this attitude that he's describing is necessary for the statesman so to not be caught up in personal glory. One has to keep one's focus on seeking the common good.
And this kind of stoicism is a necessary part of that, not being overly agitated by the success or failure of one's last political stratagem, and also not being so concerned about how it affects oneself.
If you fail, you fail. If you lose money, if you lose friends, that may be necessary, but you have to be prepared to do what is right in all circumstances and keep your focus on that.
So that requires certainly a different attitude from the one who desires his own personal preeminence above all.
[00:33:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:33:15] Speaker C: And on the question of is this getting at a kind of deep spiritual, you know, sense of liberation? I mean, I would say it is, I think, to some degree. But at the same time, it's certainly all of this is in the context of all the other virtues that he's talked about as well, especially the virtues that justice and liberality. Right. That really do bond us to other human beings in various ways. Right. And so it's certainly not.
I don't think he's advocating a kind of detached, you know, just. Just focus on my own internal, you know, well being, but very much focus on am I discharging my duties? Right. Am I remaining constant and solid enough that regardless of circumstances, I have the kind of wherewithal to, you know, to act justly and to be. Be beneficial to the people around me, especially to those, to those who, who I have duties toward and to the.
[00:34:15] Speaker D: Country, as Ethan said.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Right. It even sounds like it's a kind of Roman Ciceronian style, sort of active political stoicism, rather than a kind of quietist, scholar, ivory tower stoicism.
Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. My co host today, Beneath and Alexander Davey and Ben Peterson. We've made it through more chapters of book one of Cicero's on duties. We'll hope you'll join us again next week for more picking up where we left off in chapter 69 of book one. Thank you for listening today, we hope. If you like this podcast, please let some people know about it, share it with a friend. Subscribe and we look forward to continuing the journey with you next time. Goodbye.
