Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome back to the On Duties podcast, a production of the Ciceronian Society. We are reading through chapter by chapter, all of Cicero's great work On Duties, and we hope that you will buy a copy for yourself, either this copy from Cambridge University Press or any other translation. There are some links in the description below this episode for how you can do that. You can read along and join with us as we read through and comment on the work with a kind of rotating cast of characters of commentators from the scholars associated with the Ciceronian Society.
I am Chris Anadale. I teach philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University.
Joining me again this week is Ben Peterson of Abilene Christian University.
And joining us for the first time is James Patterson, the president of the Ciceronian Society, a man I like to call the Catholic Protestant Franco of our organization.
James, would you like to introduce yourself to people and tell them a little bit about your academic background?
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Oh, sure. I was a professor or as associate professor of politics at ave Maria for 10 years, and I have since moved there.
I mean, from there to the University of Tennessee.
I just started last fall, so I'm at the Institute for American Civics.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: What's your degree in, John James?
[00:01:35] Speaker A: I have an American government PhD, which is an unusual thing. Normally it's just political science, but the University of Virginia had a somewhat more traditional degree naming scheme when I was still there. So I think it's just political science now. But I have a PhD in American government, and I got that a bachelor's degree from the University of Houston.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Okay, great. Thanks very much. Welcome to the show.
Ben, would you like to review your credentials for people who might be hearing about you for the first time, might have forgotten from last time?
[00:02:08] Speaker C: Well, thanks again for the opportunity to be here with both of you gentlemen.
My PhD is in political science from Texas A and M University, and I kind of focused on political theory, and I teach government at Abilene Christian University. So I teach American politics and policy, political theory and research methods.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Okay, and you've actually taught some Cicero in the classroom, is that right?
[00:02:35] Speaker C: I teach an ancient political thought course, and we cover the republic and the laws.
And so that's my. That's kind of my background with Cicero. And I did have a chance recently to read and I may come up in today's conversation. I had a chance to read Josiah Osgood's book Lawless Republic, which focuses on Cicero, and it's a great book.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: No, magnificent. That's great. We should talk more about that sometime in the future.
Let's get to the text. And, Ben, I'm going to ask you to lead us in this. To begin with, we're on page 28 of this edition at book one, chapter 69 of the text. We ended in the middle of chapter 69. So, Ben, let me ask you to back up just to the beginning of it, because Cicero is going to begin by talking about a certain kind of tranquility of spirit, and then carry us in through and read through the end of chapter 70, please. And, James, you'll take first comment after that, okay?
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:03:31] Speaker D: We must empty ourselves of every agitation of the spirit, desire and fear, of course, but also sorrow and excessive pleasure and anger in order to gain that tranquility of spirit, that freedom from care which ensures both constancy and standing.
There have been many, and there still are, who have sought that kind of tranquility by abandoning public business and fleeing to a life of leisure. These include the noblest and foremost philosophers, and also certain strict and serious men who could not endure the behavior of the populace or its leaders.
Some of these have spent their lives on their estates, finding their delight in their family wealth. Their aim was the aim of kings, that needing nothing and obeying no one, they might enjoy liberty, the mark of which is to live just as one pleases. That aim, then, is common both to those who desire power and to such men of leisure. The former, however, think that they can achieve it by acquiring great wealth. The latter, if they are satisfied with the little that is already theirs.
Neither view should be utterly despised. Note, though, that the life of leisure is easier and safer, less troublesome to oneself or to others. Those, on the other hand, who have adapted themselves to great achievements in the service of the political community, lead lives more profitable to mankind and more suited to grandeur and fame.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: So we.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: James, go ahead, please.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Oh, yes. So we have here no small concern, right? This is one of the primary questions of political philosophy, which is, how is it to rule? How is it that we rule?
And so we are to have a kind of motive. But the motives he's describing are the commonest ones, even among the great, even among the people we celebrate. And so this idea of emptying ourselves of desire and fear sounds like.
I mean, this is supposed to be a letter of practical advice, right?
Like, my goodness, how. How difficult is it to empty what? It's, you know, no little matter to empty yourself with desire and fear.
And.
And then he describes the means by which people come to rule. Their desire for freedom, either by great wealth or by lowering the standard right, which I really like so the standard. Of course you would still be free because you would need nothing.
These are not even good enough solutions. But they're also incredibly difficult. Right. So there's a way in which he's sort of understanding how hard it is to do what he's describing. This is a tremendous.
A tremendous underselling of the. Of the undertaking.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd agree and I'll. I'll add my two cents. I had two thoughts on. On listening to this again.
1. It occurs to me just now that he. He could be speaking of two different types of academics. You know, the. The ones who have made it at the R1 schools who. Who teach a 2:2 load and are highly competent.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: I worked hard for this job grinding
[00:06:56] Speaker B: away in the salt mines. Neither to be entirely despised. But some people succeed by lowering their. Achieve the same goal by lowering their. Their standard of living.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: I have to admit at my R1 job I had an RA read this and just tell me what it said.
Okay. And the comments I'm reading, he wrote down for me.
[00:07:17] Speaker D: Wonderful.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: I look forward to.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Look forward to the debut of the. Of the Patterson bot that'll just. AI Based on all your past writings, whatever your opinion is about any topic,
[00:07:25] Speaker A: we ask a very important presiding over the Ciceronean society to do. All right. I don't have time to read all of this non nonsense from dead Romans with their tongues pierced.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: My other thought was that here Cicero is already building a case that he's going to continue through the remaining chapters for.
You know, although the philosophical life and the political life are both excellent, the political life is more excellent. And there's even some kind of subtle digs here that these men are kind of wanting to live like kings without enjoying the responsibility of kings.
And the philosopher who values his leisure over the duties of the state is someone who's going to come in for more criticism in the chapters ahead. So Ben, what were your thoughts either along that line or in a new direction?
[00:08:16] Speaker C: 1. I'll just kind of repeat something I think I said in the last episode. But you know, here we kind of see Cicero at his most stoic. You know, you have to have this equanimity. I think he'll use that word later. You know, this kind of tranquility of spirit. How freedom from care. But I like James's question. You know, it's kind of like how do you. Actually, it's interesting that you do have to. It seems like you have to be able to achieve certain external conditions around yourself in order to. To maintain that level of kind of buffering from fortune, as he'll later talk about. Right. Or you have to have this really great spirit to be able to kind of go with the flow as things, as fortune comes and goes. It is interesting that he says, I'm not going to utterly despise either one of these, even though, to your point, Chris, it's better to do, to be the kind of person that can maintain this sort of equanimity and freedom from care, as you're also making achievements for the public good. Right. So, I mean, it's not quite as good as the truly, you know, public spirited, great spirited person, but I get it. You know, you may want to, you know, just enjoy your nest egg or just kind of, like you said, lower
[00:09:29] Speaker D: your expectations and be a philosopher.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Okay, very good. And we're off to a good start.
Next, I think we'll tackle chapter 71. James, why don't you read that? And I'll have first comment.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Men of outstanding ability who have devoted themselves to learning rather than choose public life, or those who have retired from public life, hampered by ill health or some quite serious cause, should therefore perhaps be excused when they yield to others the power and the praise of governing. When, however, those without a reason claim to despise the commands and magistracies which most men admire, I do not think that should be counted as praiseworthy. Indeed, no, but rather as a vice.
It is a difficult thing not to approve their view insofar as they disdain glory or. Or think it worthless. But they appear to be afraid of hard work and trouble, and also, or so it seems, the humiliation and disrepute which results from failure and defeat. For there are those who are so inconsistent and opposite circumstances that they despise pleasure with the utmost rigor, but are weak when faced with pain.
Glory they ignore, but they are broken by humiliation.
And they are not very constant, even in this.
[00:11:03] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Again, my mind goes to the. The criticisms of the academics, right? This is the academic who's lazy and cowardly and would like to have the comfort of the intellectual life free of the demands of service, political service, or the risks involved, the pain and the humiliation involved with taking the risks and failing as often as you succeed.
Failing sometimes, at least. Of course, we know Cicero writing this. This is his final work. He's executed a little over a year after completing it.
But this is, you know, the place where he sticks the knife in. Right? This sounds like. Sounds admirable. The Platonic, above it all philosopher. This is, you know, taking issue not for the first or last time with Plat, the philosopher, the intellectual who's able to be above it all seems admirable, but isn't it really the case that he's just afraid of the hard work? He doesn't want to risk himself by fulfilling his duty to the community, by taking the risks and actually bearing sort of in his person and his psyche the wounds that will result from, you know, getting beat up in the arena, sometimes winning, but sometimes inevitably losing as well. So the problem here is that the philosopher king, who rules only kind of, with a kind of lofty disdain, is not really the proper political model. He is, in a sense, almost just half a man. He needs to be the complete veer, the complete virtuous man in order to complete the demands of duty.
Ben, what do you think?
[00:12:51] Speaker C: Well, just to keep jabbing at academics, you know, for once, I think Tocqueville at one point says, you know, philosopher, you know, you wouldn't become a philosopher or like, something like that if you were actually successful in, like, affair, you know, affairs of the world, right? You know, you. Those are people who can't make it in the. In the world. And, you know, of course, I mean, it kind of fits Tocqueville a little bit. But anyway, the. I. This, this passage here was one thing
[00:13:15] Speaker D: that struck me is that he's concerned.
[00:13:17] Speaker C: In previous chapters, he has said, you know, people of great soul, they might be not afraid to risk their lives in battle, but some of them are pulled aside by pleasure, right? You know, are pulled aside from the true greatness of spirit by pleasure.
[00:13:34] Speaker D: Here he's saying, okay, and some people
[00:13:36] Speaker C: are able to despise pleasure, but they're too afraid to, you know, like you said, risk, you know, their lives and fortune.
You know, they might paint it as disdaining glory. And that's a good thing, right? Disdaining, you know, that's the disdain for human affairs that he wants people to have.
But
[00:13:57] Speaker D: it's.
[00:13:57] Speaker C: It's interesting. I mean, it's. I don't know if it's Aquinas or somebody who, you know, the right action
[00:14:01] Speaker D: is not only the action itself, right?
[00:14:03] Speaker C: But it's the, you know, the right motive for the action as well. It's the right action with the right motive, with due regard for the consequences. And I think that's kind of Cicero in these chapters gets kind of exacting, right? It's like you. You can't only do something that appears to be something that a great souled person would do. Why are you really doing it? Is it really because of fear of, you know, your own position, losing your ability to live like a king. Right. And do what you please. Right.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: And.
[00:14:32] Speaker C: And so it's a really interesting, you know, call to self, you know, examination of your true motives, I think.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah. James, I've been casting about for a quotation by an English poet, something like, cast your eyes upon me. I yearn for accusation.
And it was Dama Honey that brought it up with me. And I've been sort of frantically Googling. Hopefully wasn't picked up by the microphone while doing this, and I have failed. Damahoney isn't the one who said it. He quoted it to me in an interview I did with him at Law and Liberty, and it stuck with me.
Obviously, not entirely, like I forgot the author.
But there are two senses in which when I read this. The first, I think, is probably the intended, which is that some people don't want to be disliked, and so they'll do whatever they can in order to ensure that they retain their friendships.
The other is that some people like to be humiliated. They think that there's a kind of.
There's a. There's a way in which the humiliation or the disrepute exonerates them from having to do any work.
And I'm not sure if that's an intended reading here, if I'm. If I'm misreading here. But, you know, it's this line here, but our.
That they despise pleasure with the utmost rigor, but are weak when faced with pain, glory. They ignore, but they are broken by humiliation.
The reason that he's describing this, these are people who refuse to command. They refuse to do the work.
And in a way, being hated is a good way out of having to do that.
And the reason I think of this is of how often we've seen people, when faced with, like, angry crowds, claiming a kind of mantle of victimhood.
They essentially give the. The person in charge a. A. An excuse for not, you know, enforcing the laws against riots or what have you.
And.
And so I'm not sure, again, if this is the right reading, but it's the one that kept leaping to me when I was thinking about this earlier today.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
If we can find that quote, I'll put it in the show notes when I'm editing this episode for publication. That's great.
Let me move on to chapter 72 and 73. I'll read those and Ben, ask you to take first comment.
Okay.
But those who are equipped by nature to administer affairs must abandon any hesitation over winning office and engage in public life.
For only in this way can either the city be ruled or greatness of spirit be displayed.
No less than philosophers, and, I suspect even more so, must those who choose public life acquire the magnificent disdain for human affairs that I stress and. And tranquillity of mind and freedom from care.
Otherwise, how would they live? Without anxiety, with seriousness, and with constancy.
This is easier for philosophers in that there is less in their life which is vulnerable to the blows of fortune, and their needs are fewer. And if they do meet with misfortune, their fall cannot be so severe.
It is with good reason, therefore, that greater impulses to achieve greater things are aroused in the spirits of those who engage in public life than of those who live quietly. Therefore, they need greatness of spirit and freedom from anguish all the more.
When anyone does undertake public business, he should remember to reflect not only on how honorable that is, but also on whether he has the capacity to succeed.
Here he must take thought so that indolence does not make him despair prematurely, nor greed spur him to overconfidence. Before you approach any business, thorough preparations must be made.
[00:18:56] Speaker C: So a couple thoughts jump out at me. I think this is a really interesting couple of chapters.
I mean, I think a little bit of this one and the last one or the last sections we read of, you know, the idea, you know, Teddy Roosevelt's idea of the man in the arena, right? It's. It's. Hey, get. Get in there and be ready to take what fortune's going to throw at you. You know, you. It's. It's not honorable. It's actually a vice to, you know, you know, sit out of the political arena when in fact, you are fitted for it, right? You are a person who, you know, I've actually thought before it would be really cool to have, you know, a lot of the Shakespearean tragedies are about people who are too grasping, you know, who are trying to take. Trying to go beyond, you know, take too much power or something like that.
But what about the person who does not, you know, who sort of fails to, you know, assume the position of authority and responsibility that they're fitted for by nature? And I think he's getting at that. I even thought of the, you know,
[00:19:55] Speaker D: Jesus parable of the talents, too.
[00:19:57] Speaker C: You know, it's kind of like the man who buries his talents and the master is totally upset with him, you know, because you. You squandered it. You squandered your gifts, right? So I think. I think that something like that is even Even here, too. Now then once again, I mean, toward the end, Cicero, you know, he's very exacting. He's like, okay, you should not be afraid to, you know, don't, don't squander your talents. Get in there and have the greatness of spirit to accept what fortune throws at you even if you fail. Also, make sure you take thought and don't fail. Right. You know, so, I mean, it's, it's very, you know, don't be over hasty to do things.
Make sure you're prepared and you're not. You're giving yourself the best chance of success, even knowing that you, you might fail. This is kind of a lot going on there.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: There's also a certain amount of Cicero assessing his own life here.
You know, he's philosopher of some kind, Right. And he didn't eschew public life, you know, and there were others who did in the philosophical tradition. Right.
In a way, like, the only one that really matches him is the original Socrates. He serves in the Athenian assembly. Right.
And the others were too aristocratic for their own good. And Cicero, having that aristocratic bearing, is insisting on this in a way.
It's an attempt to kind of vindicate, you know, the choices that he made. He got to, he was able to do both.
And that last thing that Ben said really, really got me. Don't forget to tough to succeed.
Oh, Cicero, who's running the show over in Rome? It ain't you now. Right. You know, so, so I don't really know the relationship here that well between he and his son, but Cicero doesn't know how things are going to go down next.
And so he might be pleading with an effort to kind of revert Rome back from whatever it is as transpiring. And of course, that's not what happens.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd endorse everything that's been said so far and just with reiterating that this sounds like father writing to his son, you know, his young adult son, old enough to get into trouble, but maybe not old enough to really have some wisdom, earn some wisdom of his own.
And so, yeah, the other thing, of course, continuing this criticism of Plato that the philosopher king, the one who gets away from it all and sort of dwells purely with the ideas in the ivory tower, not the ideal, the idea. He has a duty, he has an officium to the community and to the people. And if he's able to, he leaves out one half of justice. We said in a previous episode, he's just in one way, but he's unjust because he's letting people down. People who are depending upon him and people who could use the fruits of his gifts if he were more courageous and more able to act out and take the risks that that virtue demands, that duty demands.
I think next we'll tackle chapters 74, 75 and 76. Ben, if you'd read those. And we'll have. Have James do the first comment. Thank you.
[00:23:26] Speaker D: Okay. Most men consider that military affairs are of greater significance than civic. I must deflate that opinion. For men have not infrequently sought war out of desire for glory. This has most often been true of men of great spirit and talent, and all the more so if military service suits them and they love the business of warfare. However, if we are prepared to judge the matter correctly, many achievements of civic life have proved greater and more famous than those of war.
Themistocles may rightly be praised, and his name possess greater renown than Solons.
Salamis may be summoned as a witness to a famous victory, which may indeed be ranked above the council that Solon showed when he instituted the Areopagus.
In fact, however, the latter should be judged no less splendid than the former.
For the former benefit was a single one. The latter will serve the city forever. By that council, the very laws of the Athenians and their ancestral institutions are preserved. Themistocles could claim to have helped the Areopagus in nothing. The Areopagus, however, might truly claim to have assisted him. The very war was waged according to the counsel of the Senate that Solon had established. The same may be said about Pausanias and Lysander. It may be thought that their achievements won for Sparta imperial rule, but they cannot begin to be compared with the laws and discipline instituted by Lycurgus, which were rather the very causes of their having armies so well trained and courageous.
I did not consider that Marcus Scaurus, in my boyhood yielded anything to Gaius Marius, nor Catullus to Pompey, when I myself was involved in public life.
Arms have little effect abroad if there is no council at home. Africanus was outstanding as a man and as a general, but when he destroyed Numantia, he benefited the Republic no more than did Publius Nasica. At the same time, when, though a civilian, he killed Tiberius Gracchus. The deed, it is true, was not a matter merely of civilian methods affected as it was by physical force. It involved methods appropriate to war.
However, it was civic counsel that prompted it, and no army was involved.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: There's a long, long debate over whether the New England patriots Had to credit Tom Brady or Bill Belichick more.
And real ones know it's Belichick, although he's not doing so great now.
And I actually don't know. I'm just taking a position. Uh, but, uh, that's the issue here. I took that position because that seems to be the one that Cicero is taking.
[00:26:19] Speaker D: Right.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: It's, it's all fine, you know, to praise a general leading an army into battle, but who formed that general? Right. Who? Why? Why? Who gave that general the orders? What is that general defending? Right. And that general exists not for conquest, but for defense of a, of a city. The civic matters, the place where people achieve their highest degree of development is in the city.
And so it's not really a war alone that's going to be the basis for greatness. There also needs to be respect for civic leaders, often not given to them because people will take their leadership for granted, or they may actually not like that leader because the leaders done things that ran contrary to their interests. And in this respect, we're also again, sort of hearing the echoes of the recent events in Cicero's life. Right.
You know, people seem to really like generals these days, but you know, they'd be nothing if there weren't a city for them to defend.
Right.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: I'll just amplify that. Of course, the long series of examples here is about the benefits of institution building over the kind of one time glory of victory in war.
The battle enters history. You know, Thermopylae, Salamis and other battles enters history as this sort of glorious thing in the retelling. But as you pointed out, James, the battle, the army, the courage, is all made possible by the civic institutions that have strengthened the state. So where should an ambitious young man seeking glory and anxious to best use his talents for the city, where should he devote himself? Well, military service is great, but civic service and the building of institutions, the creation of constitutions and the upholding of civic virtue and civic life is more glorious still and worthy of higher honor. It just seems to be, again, Cicero, the politician coming out, not to disdain the one, but to vindicate the one that is more easily ignored, especially in times of, of conflict and warfare. Ben?
[00:28:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think he began the section about greatness of spirit, you know, talking about how it's an interesting one of the sort of virtues, because it does have this double edge. You know, it has this potential for, you know, people might. Yes, people obviously are attracted to military glory.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:29:02] Speaker C: There's something very kind of almost primal about It a track. We see this display of courage, of greatness in a very intense way. But people might.
[00:29:14] Speaker D: He begins this section here.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: You know, people might get us into a dangerous war, you know, a war that's not based for good reason, that's not a defensive war or it's not an honorable war, so that they can, you know, kind of shortcut to that kind of glory. Right. Whereas wise counsel, you know, why Wise deliberation, it's not as flashy, it's not as obvious, you know, it's not as people aren't maybe, like you said, flocking to it as much as they are in. In Cicero's day. But it can lay the foundations for enduring achievement, enduring political benefit.
So I think that's very interesting.
And yes, of course, I mean, not, you know, not to steal the thunder from the next chapter, but I mean, it's. We're very much leading up to like, oh, yeah, by the way, remember when I saved the Republic, that was, that was, you know, me being super awesome, leading, you know, using the, you know, acting in the civilian role. Right. And that's, that's, you know, grown Rome's greatest moment, you know, And I also wonder, I mean, it's. It's not quite a strict, you know, civilian control of the military idea, but there, there does seem to be a kind of rudiment of that idea here. You know, the notion that the council, the deliberative element, ought to be in control of the arms bearing part of the city or the empire, as it may be.
[00:30:37] Speaker B: Right, Very good.
We're running a little bit long on this episode, but I think I'd like to finish with chapter 77 and 78, which are quite short and kind of bring this whole train of thought to a close.
James, would you read those and I'll comment first.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: The best expression of all. This is the verse which I gather is often attacked by shameless and envious men. Let arms yield to the toga and laurels to laudation, to mention no others. When I held the helm of the Republic, did not arms then yield to the toga?
Never was there more serious danger to the republic than then, and never was there greater quiet.
Through my vigilance and my counsel, the very arms swiftly slipped and fell from the hands of the most audacious citizens. Was any achievement of war ever so great?
What military triumph can stand in comparison?
I am allowed to boast to you, Marcus, my son, for yours, it is both to inherit my glory and to imitate my deeds. Pompey himself, indeed, whose military Exploits won lavish praise, paid me the tribute of saying in the hearing of many that he would have won his third triumph in vain had my service to the Republic not ensured that he had somewhere to celebrate it. Therefore, the courageous deeds of civilians are not inferior to those of soldiers. Indeed, the former should be given even more effort and devotion than the latter.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Well, this is what it's been leading up to. In a sense. This is both.
Cicero celebrating himself. But of course, it's as Babe Ruth famously said, it's not bragging if you can do it, you know, or if you have done it. The magnanimous man would just tell the truth about himself. I am in fact, one of the greatest statesman of Rome.
And then speaking directly to his son, which is a thing we've not heard, I think, in a while in this book, you know, Marcus, yours, it is to inherit my glory. Okay. To sort of benefit from being my son and to imitate my deeds and to earn glory for yourself. So this is about as. About as straight as, you know, dad can ever say it to. To one of his grown children.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: Right? It's.
[00:33:15] Speaker B: I.
I have distinguished myself and built a name for our family in this particular arena of civic life. It is superior to the sort of hard hitting warfare that other people that's more obviously admirable.
But it. It really does deserve the higher honor, the greater effort, and it should attract the attention of the highest quality of men, including. Including young Marcus.
Ben, what do you think?
[00:33:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, like you said, I mean, we really just see Cicero's humility coming out here, you know, as one of those. Those duties we should be. No, I mean, he. He says he even kind of acknowledges that he's boasting. Right. You know, it's a kind of father to son as. As you. As you mentioned, you know, it. It's remarkable. And I mean, it is kind of at once his defense of his own actions, which, by the way, he can cite Pompy. Right. You know, as someone who has given him the honor that is appropriate, he thinks, to that action. At the same time.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: In front of witnesses, too.
[00:34:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. In front of others. Right.
And so.
[00:34:21] Speaker D: And.
[00:34:21] Speaker C: And it was true. I mean, it was. I mean, he did receive lots of, you know, honor and glory from that.
[00:34:25] Speaker D: From that.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: I want to say one more thing
[00:34:27] Speaker D: about that actual event in a second,
[00:34:29] Speaker C: but yeah, at the same time, it's the kind of culmination or capstone of his argument for sort of the greater glory belonging to successful service for the Republic in the Civilian in civil affairs. It's interesting because a couple things about the actual event. I mean, his example here, this is him, you know, saving the republic, you know, quelching the catiline conspiracy. Right. And actually urging the Senate to require an extrajudicial execution of the conspirators. Right. You know, and it was fascinating in the Osgood book that I mentioned the lawless Republic. He points out that it's actually none
[00:35:17] Speaker D: other than Julius Caesar himself, himself, who
[00:35:19] Speaker C: spoke against that decision and said, this may set in motion a precedent you don't want to see continued.
This may set a precedent for extra legal violence, political violence, essentially politically sanctioned violence. And so it's just remarkable.
Now, of course, obviously, Caesar made his own moves to undermine the fabric of the Republic. But, but Cicero was a part of this kind of contested situation where the norms and rules were being violated. At the same time, he's trying to respond to dangers to the Republic.
So it's just a fascinating situation and it kind of is interesting. He has that other example of Publius Nasica where he's also a civilian who is ordering a kind of execution. And he's in the same kind of role, right, where it's. He's a civilian leader, but he is sort of, you know, urging the use of force to, just to protect the Republic as he sees it. Right. And so it's just that there's, it's a lot of interesting things at play there. And it is kind of just, it's interesting to read just such a forthright, you know, claim of proper glory properly pursued and achieved that he is trying to hand down to Marcus. And, you know, I don't know, remember, he's trying to draw Marcus away from a purely philosophic, you know, leisurely life, but maybe also from a purely military, you know, military glory seeking life as well.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: So Cicero's right.
[00:37:03] Speaker C: The.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: He's just right about this. He is amazing. He's an amazing guy. And so, you know, I don't feel a bit bad. It also kind of points to how, you know, often when you read greats like Cicero, when you see something that kind of doesn't click right, you just, it kind of just goes past you and Cicero's complete lack of reference to a kind of Christian humility, right. Is, is this sort of like, you know, whoa. Right. Like, is he. He is a. He is a pagan, right? He is a pagan and, and every way. And so, you know, his greatness is not going to be sort of deflated the way that he wants to deflate military greatness.
One other thing is, you know, I don't have anything to improve on the previous statement, so I'll just add something that I thought was so weird to read is we normally associate Rome with like greatness, maybe in engineering and military matters. And here you have let arms yield to the toga, right? This is not, this is not something you normally associate with Rome because it was not yet the empire.
And so this really does indicate, like, what a tremendous change Rome undergoes from the late Republic to the early empire, that no one would say this anymore after a certain point.
And in fact they, they reverse it.
And it's not clear that to me that Cicero knows that's what's going to happen. He seems to more, you know, quietly worry.
[00:38:46] Speaker C: Oh, by the way, he's quoting himself with that. Like even that line is his own.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: Oh, no way. What's that from?
[00:38:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it said. Well, the note here, you know, comes from book, book three of Cicero's poem on his own times.
So he's quoting himself at the same time.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: I'm looking at the, there's, you know, a bunch of boring details to my, my life right now that have made me have to use the, the digital version.
And so the, the notes aren't as convenient. So I missed that.
Wow.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: I had one closing thought, I might add. It just occurred to me, listening to you guys talk, I wonder if Cicero hasn't here sort of self consciously inverted the hierarchy that we get from Plato, in a sense, where you think of the politician as dealing in some sense with the kind of the management type of the city, the military, the soldier, dealing with the survival of the city, representing a sort of the sort of the most middle part of the soul. And then the philosopher, being the intellectual, being the sort of highest, best kind of person, maybe sort of compelled to rule in a way, but really preferring to just contemplate justice, for example. And Cicero gives us a place where actually the intellectual who sort of lacks the courage to take the risks of civic life has kind of been left pretty far behind. And now we're sort of looking at is the military man who saves the republic superior in glory to the civic person who saves the republic through speech and through institution building? And actually there it's the civic, it's the Cicero who is higher than the military figure, the general, and that the idea of a purely intellectual life is kind of inferior in glory, although not to be utterly despised. Do you think there's anything to that?
[00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. I think that's especially the case when he assesses what it means to be a kind of, a kind of an aristocratic figure in Rome.
That there's a kind of idleness, a kind of what he describes as indolence is a term that he, you know, seems to favor.
I've just done a straight read all the way through to where we're gonna hopefully end up. And that seems to be a preoccupation with him. He thinks philosophers don't really get enough done, which isn't a funny thing because like that's very Roman.
You know, there's a real distinction here between Rome and Greece.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: Ben, any final thoughts?
[00:41:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, just on what you're saying, you know, the, the there is this interesting.
He, he, as James said a little bit earlier, I mean he is a philosopher, right? He's, he's not throwing shade on philosophy as such, but he, he does want it to be employed. He thinks it, it especially for one who has the gift or the, you know, is that endowed by nature with the ability to shape public events and to give service to the country.
It's an injustice to deprive the country of that, the Republic of that. And so, yeah, I mean it is philosophy or philosophy, informed politicking that I think and civil council leadership that really gets the highest praise. And I think it also connects a little bit with, remember his we talked about in some previous episodes, who do we most owe liberality to?
And it's the country and it's gratitude based kind of hierarchy of to whom we owe things and ought to give our time, energy, attention to. And so the republic claim, the country claims for him a very high, the highest share of our attention and effort and everything. And so this in some ways could also connect to that.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: Right. Well, this is definitely Cicero. You know, at, at his peak, Cicero, we might say this is doing what he does.
So that brings us to the end, I think of this episode of the On Duties podcast. We've read through the end of chapter 79 of On Duties. Well, I'm sorry, 78 of On Duties. We'll pick up at that point with chapter 79 next week. I hope you'll join us next Wednesday for another look reading through On Duties. Want to thank Ben Peterson and James Patterson for joining us today. Thanks very much for watching. We'll see you next week. Bye.
