[00:00:09] Josh Bowman: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the On Duties podcast, a production of the Ciceronian Society, where we are reading through Marcus Cicero's seminal work, On Duties, or De Officiis. This is a great work and I hope you've enjoyed following along and reading along with us. We are reading from the Cambridge Texts and History of Political Thought version, Cicero On Duties. For that, we have a link to that in the show notes. I'm Josh Bowman, Executive Director of the Ciceronian Society. I'm joined by Chris Anadale, professor of Philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University, and Ben Peterson.
What's your title, Ben? I forgot to ask you.
[00:00:44] Ben Peterson: I'm Assistant professor of Political Science at Abilene Christian University.
[00:00:49] Josh Bowman: I knew the location, I knew the discipline. I. I just couldn't remember if. Yeah. Do you even know me, Josh? No, I don't even know you. Soon, soon to be promoted, Ben.
I mean, I tried. I tried to sync that for you just. Just to go public here, the letter I sent them. So.
But anyways, we're so glad that you're joining us. And we are in book two of Cicero On Duties. We finished off last time with book two, chapter 42. We're going to start now with book two, chapter 43.
Remember, we've been talking about, you know, is it.
This is kind of a contrast with Machiavelli. Machiavelli is someone who's like, look, it's better to be feared than to be loved because people are so fickle. Cicero's like, no, that's ridiculous. You don't want to be feared. If you're feared, this is why it's not going to work. It's much better to be loved in terms of how you influence people, not only as a leader, but just as an individual part of your community.
And one of the things I kept bringing up in the last episode was, does it matter to Cicero whether or not you really are good or if you just seem to be good? Well, he seems to anticipate that question here, let's see what he has to say. So this is chapter 43.
And yet, as Socrates declared splendidly, the nearest path to glory, a shortcut, so to speak, is to behave in such a way that one is what one wishes to be thought for. Men who think that they can secure for themselves unshakable glory by pretense and empty show by dissembling in speech and countenance, are wildly mistaken.
True glory takes root and spreads its branches too. But everything false drops swiftly down, like blossom, and pretense can never endure. There are witnesses in plenty to both those points. But for brevity's sake, one family will suffice, for Tiberius Gracchus, the son of Publius, will be praised as long as the memory of Roman deeds endures. His sons, however, while alive, did not win the approval of good men, and now that they are dead, they are numbered among those who were justly cut down. If anyone wishes then to win true glory, let him fulfill the duties of justice and what they are. I have said in my first book.
And so we'll do what we usually do, we're going to go around the circle here and comment on this. So we're going to start with Chris. Chris, what do you think about this chapter?
[00:03:10] Chris Anadale: Well, this is, as you point out, Josh, this is where when I say Cicero anticipates the. The Machiavelli objection. Well, isn't it the.
The seeming of virtue and the seeming that attracts the admiration of the people, that. That wins you glory. But Isa anticipates. But in a sense he's also just recapitulating a point that's made by one of Plato's brothers early in. In Republic, right, Glaucon says that it's not the being of justice, but the seeming of justice that people praise. And so why not have the seeming without the being?
So Sisero does a couple of things here. One, he says, it is the being that we want and everything false pretense can never be kept up forever. Pretense will always fall out. And so those who pretend to be just will without being just, will always fail. We'll always be exposed. So we might suspect that of being a little bit of wishcasting, perhaps, or a little bit sort of morale strengthening, perhaps for somebody whose faith in human beings is beginning to flag. But I was struck by the first sentence of this chapter where he says the nearest path to glory, the shortcut to glory, is to behave in such a way that one is what one wishes to be thought. So I'd like to live up to the good opinion that people have of me, or the good opinion that I would like them to have of me. I'd like to be the way that I imagine myself being admired to be. And he notes that this is an idea that comes from Socrates, from Xenophon's Socrates in the footnote. So that put me in mind of something that Pascal says in maybe the same region, but with a slightly different message. Of course, one of the parts of the Wager is where Pascal talks about the need to how does one acquire faith well, perhaps at the first, by going through the motions, by seeming to have. By doing the things that a faithful person would do. And then you sort of, we might say you sort of grow into it. After a while, you're no longer faking. So perhaps there is a sort of virtuous path through seeming to be virtuous, to actually being virtuous, if you simply try to live up to the expectation that you think people would have of a better man. So that's my comment. Ben, what do you think
[00:05:34] Josh Bowman: to the
[00:05:35] Ben Peterson: question you raised, Josh? I mean, yeah, I think Cicero is kind of a thinker who tends to emphasize convergence between interests and morality. Right. And so if you follow social conventions, most of the time, you're going to be on the right path toward moral, decent, just behavior. Right. I mean, if you. And in the same way here, I think, hey, if the best way, you know, there's a kind of nice convergence here between, if your goal is glory, still your best chance is in fact, to be a person deserving of glory and honor. Right. I mean, I did. It does kind of, you know, sometimes I think about what is how a skeptic might respond to Cicero. And it does seem like, I mean, what about the point, you know, the. I'm thinking of the discussion between Glaucon and Socrates and the Republic. What if someone's really good at, you know, isn't the best thing to be really good at appearing just and noble and, you know, just be real. If you're actually good enough at dissembling, then you can get the glory and not go through the trouble of being just and being, you know, all these. These arduous virtues that you have to require, acquire. Right. And so, I mean, that does kind of come into my head about what about somebody who is just exceptional, you know, exceptional at making people think that they are these things that they're actually not.
But I do think Cicero is just kind of a practical thinker. You know, it kind of says, hey, look, your best shot, and it's not a guarantee, it's not a guarantee that you're going to get glory, but your best shot is to just simply, you know, let your yes be yes and your no be no. To borrow from Jesus. Right.
So I'll turn it over to you, Josh.
[00:07:11] Josh Bowman: Yeah, I mean, I agree with what you guys are saying. I was thinking about how. And I don't think Cicero's saying this particular.
But I wonder if there's something to this another way to look at this whole seeming question. Right. So in our modern Age, there's always a preoccupation with authenticity. Be real, right?
Well, I think Cicero sees that to a point. But if there are good things to be right, just righteous, honorable, humble, and you know that you're not one of those things. Right? But you know what it looks like, right? You've learned, okay, this is what it means to at least look like that. I think there's something to be said about acting it even before.
This is kind of what Chris was saying about faith and Pascal acting it before you actually you kind of act your way into it. Does that make sense? So it makes me think of. There's a tradition within some marriage counseling, for example, depending on who you talk to, where if the husband and wife are really struggling, the challenge is like, hey, why don't you just. Why don't you just act like you really like each other still and see what happens, right?
Don't authentically just come out and just come unglued.
Right. It's, it's. Is it dishonest? Well, if it's. I think there might. If there's a sincere desire to repair and to reconcile, then not really. Right. I think there is something to be said about. Look, I understand this is hard. Sometimes you got to play the part, right?
And the authenticity may follow later. Now that's a longer conversation. One thing I, I don't want to pass over here, but I also might betray my ignorance. So the example he wants to give at the second part of this paragraph. Tiberius Gracchus, the son of Publius.
Is this the father of the Gracchi brothers who tried to do all the reforms? I want to say, is it the third century, second or third century B.C. right. Essentially kind of a revolutionary kind of, for lack of a better word, what's the guys, help me here, like populist, redistributionist. Yeah, yeah, that, that, that kind of thing. And so in, in, in his mind, why does he use that example? He'll be praised for as long as the memory of Roman deeds endures, his sons are, while alive, do not win the approval of good men. And now that they are dead, they are numbered among those who are justly cut down. If anyone wishes then to in true glory let him fulfill the duties of justice and what they are. I have said my first book. That's okay. Maybe what he's getting at here is that the Gracchi brothers, especially in the redistrict, in redistributist paradigm, it's, it's going to. I don't know if we call them Proto socialist. But in. In a way, they're kind of moving in that direction.
Were they more interested in seeming to be just. I mean, that. That's. I think that's Cicero's argument. There's, to a point, is that the Gracchi, at least from, you know, Cicero, of course, pro optimades. Right? This. That's who he is. Right.
He's not going to like the Gracchi brothers at all.
And so he's going to see this as fake justice. Right. They're. They're. They're talking about making the Roman Republic more justice, but they're not. And so that's. I think that's what he's getting at there, which I think is an interesting, interesting example. So why don't we move on? Unless you guys have a comment on that, that example.
[00:10:50] Ben Peterson: One quick comment. Go ahead, Josh. I mean. Yeah, I wonder if that's right. If I. And I. I suppose this is who we're talking about. I wonder if he's also. I mean, he says they didn't win the approval of Goodman. Right. They had the approval of the masses. Right, Right. But they didn't have the approval that's not enduring. Right. That's, you know, here today, gone tomorrow. Whereas the approval of good men is like how to build a reputation, how to gain glory over the long term. Something like that, maybe.
[00:11:17] Josh Bowman: Yeah.
So, Chris. Yeah. Chapter 44 and 45.
[00:11:26] Chris Anadale: The greatest effect is achieved then by being what we wish to seem.
However, some advice should be given so that we might, as easily as is possible, be seen to be what we are.
For if anyone from his early youth has cause to become famous and renowned, whether as the heir of his father, as I think has happened to you, my dear Cicero, or through any other chance or fortune, the eyes of all are cast on him. They examine whatever he does, the very way in which he lives. He is, as it were, bathed in so brilliant a light that no single word or deed of his can be hidden.
Others, on the other hand, because of their humble and obscure background, spend their youth unknown by other men. As soon as they become young men, they ought to set their sights on great things and strive for them with unswerving devotion.
They can do that with a steadier spirit, because at that age they will not only not be envied, but will even meet with favor.
Youth wins commendation primarily for any glory it may be able to gain in warfare.
Many of our ancestors so distinguished themselves.
For them, wars were waged almost continuously. Your own youth, however, falls at the time of A war in which one of the sides possessed too much wickedness, the other too little luck.
However, when Pompey put you in charge of a cavalry squadron in that war, you won great praise and that both from an standing man and from the army, by your horsemanship, your spear throwing and your endurance of every military hardship.
But the praise that was yours fell together with the Republic.
However, the subject of my discourse is not you, but this whole topic. And so let us proceed to what remains.
[00:13:30] Ben Peterson: Well, I mean, the. The first sentence again, I think is worth dwelling on, you know, because he begins the last. The last chapter is all about, hey, the surest path to glory is just simply to be worthy of it. And then here he's saying, now you might also want to make sure, you know, take some steps to making sure people notice you. You know, like it's not wrong in fact, you know, so you kind of have to hedge a little bit. And yes, first of all, let's just get this out of the way. Make sure you actually are worthy of glory. Okay? Now, how do we, you know, make sure we get noticed? Right? And it doesn't seem to me he quite follows the thought out, but it's almost like you have a disadvantage if you're born into fate or, you know, fame based on your ancestor or on your father. And I mean, think of all the fame, you know, sons and daughters of famous. Of celebrities or of great sports players. I mean, it's almost like that's a. That's a very hard stand now. I mean, you are expected to do well. And it's almost like it's yours to lose. If you don't live up and measure up, then it's a kind of no win situation because you might do things that for everybody else, we might say, wow, look at that upand, cominging, you know, rising star. But for that person, it's like, eh, they didn't quite measure up to, you know, their father or their. Or their mother. So that there's a kind of interesting. Some interesting things going on there.
[00:14:55] Josh Bowman: Yeah. And, and it's. It's this kind of ancient image management, right. In a sense that he knows.
They're like, look, Cicero, you, my son, Marcus Cicero, you're already. Everyone's paying attention to you. You're in Poppy's army.
Sucks. You're in the losing one. You survived at least. But you know, one of the things that is part of this is that your, Your reputation sank with Poppy's army to a point. Although luckily, at least you're still my son.
But, but there is, there is part of this where I think Cicero is cognizant of the need to keep control of the narrative. Because look, you can be just, you can even look just to the person who's there. But if you cannot control the story that is told about you, or if you lose control of the story that's told about you, especially in a political sense, you could be in big trouble. I mean, that's so much of what is still true of political campaigns today is that who is telling the story about who you are. Right. We're here in the middle of, you know, I'm living in Michigan as a heading up to the primaries, which by the time this airs will have been decided and at least on the Democrat side, I won't get into this, but it's both candidates and the PACs that are supporting them are telling the same story about the other one, but as if they're mutually exclusive. Like so in a sense, I'm not saying this, right. So the one candidate's basically saying they're taking all this money and you shouldn't vote for them. The other candidate saying they're taking all the same money and you shouldn't vote for them.
And so they're there, or someone is like this, or someone's endorsed by this. Someone's the true progressive, someone's whatever.
Neither is really doing a great job of managing the narrative. So you don't actually know who you're voting for. And I think Cicero sees that not just in politics but in everyday life, that you have this responsibility to a point to at least expose yourself to the masses for their judgment, but also to realize that sometimes your enemies will try and write a different story.
That's certainly true of Cicero. Right. He's going to have to fight that battle.
He's still fighting that battle in many ways. Right.
It's not done, but it's a testament to his greatness and his importance that we are still deciding what was his legacy. And I think that's a key piece of this. Chris?
[00:17:29] Chris Anadale: Yeah, Yeah. I was just thinking that maybe Ben and I, living in, for the most part one party states, don't experience the same drama that perhaps you do living where you do in local politics.
My thought on this, it sort of goes along with Ben Cicero in a sense seems to wander off the point here for a moment. He begins to say, well, we've talked
[00:17:55] Josh Bowman: about
[00:17:57] Chris Anadale: how to be just now let's talk about how to make sure that the justice that you have is actually seen by others, sort of thinking is he going the direction that Ben Franklin might go in, where he talks about the need to both be and to seem to be virtuous. That's sort of an American ideal often emphasized in his autobiography, but that he makes this initial distinction between, if you come from a famous family, all eyes are on you, and so everything you do will be examined. And you need from youth to be very attentive to how you're perceived. And then others from humble backgrounds, and you might be thinking of himself. The elder Cicero came from, maybe not an obscure background, but not quite as glorious as he rose to, would spend their youth unknown. As young men, they should set their sight on great things and strive for them. And they have some advantages of youth. And youth wins glory mainly through warfare. And then we have this sort of private lament, so almost feels parenthetical, like a parental lament. Well, you won great glory with Pompey. I'm putting this in the text so that people will still be reading about it thousands of years from now. But that glory ended when the republic fell. And the republic fell. We're talking about the fall of the Republic. We're talking about things that have happened maybe within the past year when this is being written. So this is very fresh and raw as sort of commiseration, you know. Well, you know, no longer.
And then this sort of reminder at the end. Well, but I'm not writing about you, just you. I'm writing about the entire topic. And so we'll return to this. So it's one of those sort of places where maybe you get a little. The clouds part a little bit. And you of Cicero in a very personal mode here, writing to his son, young Marcus. So that's what strikes me generally about this chapter.
Shall we go on to next? I think chapters 46 and 47 go together. Ben, would you like to read those? And Josh, take first comment.
[00:20:05] Ben Peterson: Just as in other matters, the efforts of the spirit are far more important than those of the body, here too, the achievements of talent and reason win more gratitude than those of strength.
One wins commendation primarily then for modesty, along with reverence for parents and goodwill to one's family and friends.
Young men become known most easily, however, and in the best way, by attaching themselves to such famous and wise men as concern themselves with the good of the political community.
By associating with such as these, they will inspire in the people the belief that they, too, will become like those whom they have chosen to imitate.
His visits to the house of Publius Mucius commended Publius Rutilius to public opinion as a person of integrity and of legal knowledge while he was but a young man. But Lucius Crassus, when he was still a youth, did not borrow from elsewhere, but won for himself the greatest of praise for that noble and glorious prosecution of his.
At an age when doing exercises normally wins praise, the young Crassus, like the Demosthenes, as we are told, showed that he could already accomplish superbly in the Forum, things for which he could at the time have been praised for studying at home.
[00:21:29] Josh Bowman: This is, this is an interesting paragraph, you know, trying to, to figure, you know, because is. Is there an ulterior motive here?
[00:21:36] Ben Peterson: Right?
[00:21:36] Josh Bowman: I mean, you'll be. You could be honored by being associated with me, Cicero, right, Just the way Rutilius was trying to be associated with Pullius Mucius, which, again, I don't. I don't know a ton about these, these characters here. I think this is going back to some of the people that he defended in his cases, in his court cases or judicial proceedings. Now, one of the things I think that's important for Cicero and I think is also important for just understanding ancient politics, is that these associations seem to be really important, that you could be guilty by association, but you could also be honorable by association. Now, I think, and I welcome your comment on this, is he saying then with the next example, when he goes to Lucius Crassus, he says, when he was still a youth, did not borrow from elsewhere, but won for himself the greatest of praise for that noble and glorious prosecution of his. At an age when doing exercises normally wins praise? The young Crassus, like Demosthenes, as we are told, showed that he could already accomplish superbly in the Forum, things for which he could at the time, have been praised for studying at home. So does Cicero value more highly the person who is learning from a mentor, from a teacher, and is able to achieve kind of honor, honor and talent and ability this way, or is he more impressed? And I think the answer is the latter. Is he more impressed by people who just seem to have a knack for it, Right. A natural talent. And I might be misreading that. That was at least my initial read of it.
But it is an interesting dynamic because whether you like it or not, if there are certain people that, that you're connected with publicly, they're going to think of you in terms of that other person, even if it's not a good idea, right? So if you, if you have, you know, just thinking of academia, for example, if someone knows who your PhD advisor was there. There's. You're going to get a label depending on the community that knows that person. Right? I mean, this is. These are obscure communities.
If I say my PhD dissertation advisor right now, there are a handful of people who are going to know who he is, but not like a bunch. Right.
But it does have this connotation like, well, he must be like that, right?
Oh, you. You studied with so and so. Oh, you must be, you know, a conservative, a liberal, a socialist, you know, whatever.
There's going to be some kind of connotation, whether just or not.
But there's some people who develop the reputation on their own.
And I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Cicero is someone who. Cicero is someone who eventually does that. But he still has mentors, he still has teachers and people that he relies upon. But that's just my first response. Chris.
[00:24:28] Chris Anadale: Yeah, I did not read this so much as a question of whether one studies with a mentor or has a sort of natural gift or knack for something. I took this especially towards the end of the final chapter to be. Be more about the difference between sort of the academic versus the practical political life. And again, Cicero is praising and elevating the political and the active and the useful over the academic and the contemplative.
And I take that to be. We don't have Catherine here to parse the Latin for us. When he says doing exercises, I don't think he's referring to physical education. I think he's referring to doing school exercises. So when a young man might be at an age at which a young man might be praised for studying rhetoric and being able to declare what the principles of rhetoric are and give sort of examples when prompted by his teacher, the young Crassus was actually in court prosecuting somebody, driving the man to suicide. In fact, as the footnote says, generating real political results which are helpful to the republic, winning glory for himself in the public arena, in the forum, rather than the kind of glory that might be thought to be more appropriate to a student, a young man, a man in his teens or early 20s, like someone his age. That's what I took him to be saying is not so much that he had a general knack for it, but that he was out in public in politics, doing great and glorious things and winning glory for himself, which perhaps Cicero did, that. Perhaps Marcus could do that, but that I took to be his.
The type of praise he was piling on there. My other observation about this was that his chapter 46 contains some interesting bits of practical advice about the gaining of glory.
Matters of the spirit are more important than those of the body. Therefore, talent and reason, and what it will win for you is more important than physical strength. Remember, this is just following on him saying young men mostly win glory through warfare. Right. But it's going to be the spirited part. So he talks about modesty, reverence for parents, goodwill to one's family and friends. He's talking about civil civic virtues in addition to the military virtues, in addition to military prowess, which might be most on the mind of a young man who's thinking about, how do I make a name for myself?
And then his advice. Well, the best way, the easiest way, is attach yourself to a famous and wise man who's concerned with the good of the political community.
And that might be Cicero, the elder Cicero himself. It might be some other figure. But interesting that he says, of course, you're not just a famous man, not just a glorious man, but a wise man who has the good of the republic, the good of the imperium of the political community in mind, rise with him sort of in his entourage, on his team, and then come into glory yourself. So it seems to me that's the sort of nugget of practical wisdom that he's offering for young men everywhere is, you know, attach yourself to a good and wise and.
And just man and help. Help the polity that way.
[00:27:47] Ben Peterson: Yeah, I think that read makes sense because at first glance I kind of thought, okay, Crassus. Lucius Crassus doesn't seem like an example of what he said was the best way, you know, to. To associate yourself with something. But I think. I think you're right. It someone he's taken as a kind of model who is one of these best, you know, people who are concerning themselves with the good of the political community, prosecuting people who need to be prosecuted. And I gather that's kind of a bold step. You'll talk more about prosecution and defense, but that's kind of a bold, irregular step, right?
Just last comment. I mean, it is. I mean, reading back to chapter 45, the end there, where, you know, he's kind of, don't worry. You got military glory, you know, my son. But anyway, we're not really talking about you, you know, we're. We're talking about the kind of glory that I've achieved, you know, and I'm. And I'm trying to encourage you, you know, toward. I gather that's a running theme, is him trying to convince his son and. And by extension Other young men, right. Like, hey, pursuit. Don't, don't neglect the civic arts, the oratory, you know, the political, the.
These kinds of issues. Don't, don't neglect these. Because military glory may seem flashy. It's the easy way, right, to achieve glory. But it all crumbles if the political community itself falls apart. Right. So it's just an interesting. There are kind of some odd, like, almost jabs in there as he's going along, making his case.
Right.
[00:29:22] Chris Anadale: Well, I think that brings us to the end of this episode. Do you guys have any final thoughts on the things we've talked about this week?
[00:29:28] Josh Bowman: Yeah, I think it might be just briefly to mention one of the important pieces of the context of the Roman political system at the end of the Republic is that part of its fall is a result of the system itself, in the sense that there were so many.
Like, I certainly, as an American constitutionalist, believe in checks and balances, but you can put so many in that nothing, nothing happens. Right? Nothing at all, including things that need to happen.
That's one way to read the Roman political system in the late republic. And I wonder if Cicero.
Cicero doesn't seem to be succumbing to the cynicism, but it just has to be in the water of the time, of this moment, of.
Does the Senate really matter? Well, by this point, frankly, no, it's. It's just kind of a. It's just dressing right in. In Rome, do the tribunes really matter? Does. You know, is. Is there. There are elections, but what, what's the point?
Right? It is. Have, have we devolved into a situation where there is no more politics? It's just about who.
Who has. Who has the biggest army, who has the most effective army. Is military virtue all that matters now?
Or are people like Cicero irrelevant? And I think.
I don't see that necessarily coming through here, but it's hard to imagine that given the context Cicero is in, he's got to be feeling that and trying to resist like, no, maybe politics still matters. Maybe because we're going to see this in the next, you know, as it's coming up, is that maybe rhetoric still matters, maybe trying to persuade people still matters, but you can kind of sympathize with the idea that maybe he's, you know, he won't give up, but you can understand why he might be tempted to.
[00:31:13] Chris Anadale: Okay, I think that brings us round to the end of this half hour reading through Cicero's on duties. I want to thank both Josh Bowman and Ben Peterson for being part of the episode. This week you've been listening to the On Duties podcast, a production of the Ciceronian Society. We hope you'll check out more of our
[email protected] and join us next week as we continue reading through On Duties. Thanks for watching today. Goodbye.
