Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Hello. Welcome back to the Cicero On Duties podcast, a production of the Ciceronian Society. We are reading through the entirety of Cicero's On Duties using this translation from Cambridge texts, but you can read through in any translation that you wish.
I'm here today with scholars from the Ciceronean Society.
Very briefly, I'm Chris Anadale. I teach philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University.
I'm joined today by Katherine Bradshaw of the Ancient Language Institute, Coyle Neal Ben Peterson, and Ethan Alexander Davy, all of whom have been hosts before on this episode. All you guys, welcome back.
[00:00:49] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Good to be here.
[00:00:51] Speaker D: Good to be here.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Fantastic. We are at chapter 126 in book one of On Duties. Cicero has brought us up to the point where he's going to begin discussing bodily appearance. Catherine, may I ask you to read chapters 126 and 127, and then, Coyle, I'll give you first comment on that, then we'll go around the circle.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: All right.
This seemliness can be seen in every deed and word, and indeed in every bodily movement or state. And the latter depend upon three things, beauty, order, and embellishment that is suited to action. Such things are difficult to express, but it will be enough if they are grasped. Furthermore, also contained in these three things is a concern to win the approval of those with and among whom we live.
Let us therefore say a few words about them as well. From the beginning, nature itself seems to have been thoroughly rational concerning our bodies. She has placed in sight those parts of our form and features that have an honorable appearance, but has covered and hidden the parts of the body that are devoted to the necessities of nature and would have an ugly and dishonorable look.
Nature's very careful craftsmanship is mirrored in men's sense of shame. For everyone of sound mind keeps out of sight the very parts that nature has hidden and makes an effort to obey necessity itself as secretly as possible.
Again, concerning those parts of the body that are used out of necessity, they refer by their own names neither to the parts themselves nor to their uses. It is not dishonorable to do such things, provided one does them in secret, but it is indecent to speak of them. Therefore, neither such activity, if it is public, nor indecency of speech, is free from scurrility.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Great.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Thank you. Coyle, what do you say?
[00:02:36] Speaker D: Yeah.
As we're going to see through this whole section, Cicero is appealing to nature, but it's an expansive vision of nature. It's not just the material world that we in the modern era tend to think of things like physics and biology and chemistry.
He's wrapping into that the sense of beauty and ugliness, an inborn sense of shame.
There's a bigger definition here than mere material stuff, to the point where later he will wrap society into that definition of nature as well, which was fairly standard. We'll see the comparison with the cynics in a moment. I don't want to jump the gun on that, because I'm looking forward to that. But everyone is appealing to nature, and Cicero is saying, hey, there is more to nature than just physical substance. There's this broader spectrum that includes aesthetics and sentiment and emotion. Maybe not quite the right word, but that's included too. Right. Our attraction to one thing and our repulsion from something else.
There's a great parallel passage in book 14 of the City of God where Augustine also talks about human bodies, but with more of a sense of humor than I think Cicero gives here. So Augustine talks about all the crazy things bodies can do. Cicero is not going quite that direction. But it's also included bodies are both a sense of beauty and a sense of hilarity, and you have to hold the two together.
That's what I've got on this passage.
That's great.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Thank you. Ben, why don't you go next?
[00:04:08] Speaker E: Yeah. Really interesting points here that our bodies are arranged in a way that sort of gives us clues, you know, about what's, you know, things are presentable and what things are. It's very interesting. And I think there's also a really interesting connection that he's arguing for a cynic. I can imagine a cynic kind of questioning this. But he says our reason kind of goes along with nature and convention goes along with nature. Right. So we kind of reasonable people under. Can understand by nature those parts of the body that we need to cover up and those parts of the body that are presentable. Right. And if we kind of work, they work on the same grain, but. Which I think is kind of an interesting claim.
I can imagine someone pushing back on it. Also the connections here with.
I'm a little bit like a broken record player in these conversations, but there's just lots of echoes with St. Paul. And so I think it's in First Corinthians 12, where he's talking about the church as a body, and even there he acknowledges there are less presentable members, and yet we give them greater honor and things like that.
So just some interesting things there.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Great. Ethan.
Yeah. I like the way Ben put it that our conventions are derived from nature. Nature suggests certain conventions which we then adopt. So the construction of our bodies suggest that certain things should be kept private.
And this, of course, contrasts with the modern or postmodern view that you should let it all hang out and air your dirty laundry in public and share everything with.
With your friends and with other members of the public. And that that's somehow more authentic. But for Cicero, the authentic, the natural thing to do is to recognize that some things are to be kept private. You do not speak of these things. You do them as is needed, but you don't speak of them. There is no need for that.
Right.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Very good. I'll just add that I think we do have, picking up Coyle on what you said, obviously, a different conception of nature, but also a different concept, the relationship of rationality to nature. So here, when you look at nature, do you see reason? And Cicero says, well, obviously nature seems to have, as you say, given us hints.
But also there is something reasonable about the way that the body is arranged.
And it is because certain parts are shameful or honorable in themselves that we don't speak of them, that we behave in the appropriate manner towards them. So, Ethan, as you said, social custom has this prior source in the rationality that we can read off of nature if we are attentive to it. And I'd imagine that this will come into his criticism of the cynics coming up, that in rejecting social convention, absolutely, they're denying any kind of rationality to the natural things that we naturally observe about our bodies.
I'll just mention as well something that's not been mentioned so far, that the first paragraph of this chapter 26 notes that.
I'm sorry, the beginning of this section in 26 says, Nature has placed in sight those parts of our form and features that have an honorable appearance. That is, in the parts that are sort of front and center for humans. Presumably the face, perhaps the hands or the arms, the pieces of the human body that are involved in daily work. Well, these are honorable. These are noble. One can sort of imagine the face being expressive in a way that elevates the circumstance as well as we'll see later on, the voice that elevates people around 1.
So I guess he's saying, in a sense, lead with that and don't go full Diogenes and start showing all the parts of your body that nature itself is sort of signaling to you belong below, covered by multiple layers of fabric or by your toga. So that's what I have to contribute. Catherine, back to you.
[00:08:16] Speaker C: Well, wonderful. Points I would only add going back to the first paragraph of 126 that Cicero reminds the reader again that seemliness applies to every deed, every word, every small movement and position of the body. So this is an all encompassing virtue. And so the three things that are involved in seemliness, beauty, order and embellishment that is suited to the action are. Are applicable to everything. And so he goes into this discussion of the body, but he was. I would imagine that Cicero would emphasize that this is just one sphere, as we've seen before, but even down to. Because the Romans didn't think of the body as a very particularly thing that needed to be talked about a lot.
And so even the things like the body should be considered part of seemliness.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:09:20] Speaker D: Well, let's.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: We'll move on to section 128. Coyle, may I ask you to read that one and Ben, to lead off comment.
[00:09:29] Speaker D: Yeah.
We must certainly not listen to the Cynics or to those Stoics that were almost cynics who criticize and mock us because we think that though some things are not themselves dishonorable, the words for them are shameful. While we call by their own names those things that are dishonorable. It is actually dishonorable to rob, to deceive, or to commit adultery, but to speak of them is not indecent. To attend to the matter of children is actually honorable, but the word for it is indecent. They have many arguments to the same conclusion. Contrary to a sense of shame for ourselves. However, let us follow nature and avoid anything that shrinks from the approval of eyes and ears. Let our standing, our walking, our sitting and our reclining, our countenances, our eyes and the movements of our hands all maintain what I have called seemliness.
[00:10:14] Speaker E: Well, I think this does kind of echo just what Catherine was saying that hey, seemliness and the appropriate sense of shame that exercising the virtue of seemliness relies on does pertain to all the different bodily states, bodily movements, all these kinds of things.
And I think it harkens back to me. What was clearest to understand this section was the example used in the. In 127 of basically relieving yourself. Right. It's not dishonorable to. To do it, you have to do it. It's a necessity. But it might be indecent, dishonorable to talk about it. Right. And so that's an interesting contrast he draws with himself and the cynics who kind of reject that notion. Right.
And so I had a little Trouble, actually. I may let others try to unpack. I'm not exactly sure what he's talking about with when he says, you know, attending to the matter of children, but I wonder, you know, I'm changing dia and things like that. I wonder if, you know, maybe what he's talking about. But that's what comes to my mind. Yeah.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: I was wondering, I was going to ask you, Catherine, if he meant the begetting of children.
Okay, that's it.
[00:11:25] Speaker C: Yes, that is what he means.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Gotcha.
Not dishonorable, but the word for it. Okay, that's fine, Ethan.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: Yes. And I'm sure there will be more comments on the. The cynics here. But there are also, as he says in this passage, there are things that are dishonourable to do, but we may still need to talk about them. So adultery is dishonourable and wrong. But we may need to speak about it in the appropriate way. Not say, to brag about your conquests if you've had them. But we need to be able to talk about moral faults openly and honestly.
But of course, there are other things that need to be spoken of that are okay in themselves, but it is inappropriate to speak of them. And we don't gain anything by speaking of them.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I would add here my note on this chapter, an interesting expression. He says, let us follow nature. That's to be expected from a stoic or anybody like a stoic. And avoid anything that shrinks from the approval of eyes and ears. If you're going to do anything that you know wouldn't be appropriate.
In a sense, he's saying, I think here, avoid outraging the eyes and ears of your fellow human beings. That was something I meant to say back about 126, that we should be concerned to win the approval of those with and among whom we live.
So this seemliness, this decorum, is not merely about sort of obeying social convention, but it's also about showing a certain kind of respect for the people who have to look at you and have to listen to you and smell you, et cetera. And that means behaving in just this way. And as we get to it now, it does sound a lot like a parenting manual, in a sense. Here's how to talk to your 12 year old boy about the things that are wrong that we can talk about and things that are wrong that it's also wrong to talk about in public unless we absolutely must. So with that, Katherine, on to you.
[00:13:33] Speaker C: Certainly the other thing that this is, is it's very much in Tying in with the Stoic tradition. So Cicero's drawing from a Stoic Panaetius on duties. And he's very much in that Stoic tradition that you see later, much later, with Marcus Aurelius with his Meditations. He says that one must not do anything that would require closed doors.
So if it's something that one has to be alone and away from people in order to do. Now, obviously, he's not talking about bodily functions and things like that. What he's talking about is things that are morally something that we want to hide from other people, that we must not do such a thing.
We must act in such a way that if everyone knew everything we were doing, we would be okay with. That is basically the bottom line that Marcus Aurelius puts forward.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: That's great, Coyle.
[00:14:34] Speaker D: Yeah, just two quick things here. First, the cynics, with all necessary disclaimers. Because we have no writings that are primary sources from the Cynics. So everything we have from them is from later writers writing about them. And of course, if you're writing about someone, you only write the fun or the weird stuff. So take all of that with a grain of salt. But it seems that the cynics are kind of forcing Cicero and the other philosophers from this era to really dig down deep into what they mean by nature.
Everyone appeals to nature. Nature is the great standard that all of these philosophers are appealing to. Stoic, Epicurean, cynic, skeptic. All of them are looking to nature. Well, the cynic comes along and says, well, it is natural for you too. And then we don't actually know because, again, our sources aren't great what sorts of things they would say or do. The sources will say things like they performed in indecency. And we're like, well, okay, but that's a lot of stuff that it could be.
And then the cynic will. Will do this indecent thing, whatever it is, in public, and then say, look, that was. Nature requires that I do that thing. It felt good. The only people telling me I shouldn't do it publicly are you guys. And you've just been socially conditioned not to do it. You're the ones who are really not living according to nature.
You're the ones who are refusing to obey the commands of nature.
Cicero is responding to that and saying, well, you have too small a view of nature. Your view of nature is not properly accounting for things like beauty, for things like rationality, for things like public sentiment. And I suspect that if there were a cynic of good conscience, their Reply would be, yeah, all of that is just socially conditioned, obeying nature.
The other thing that I think is interesting, Cicero here and then throughout today's section talks a lot about the unity of nature and beauty and rationality.
But at no point are we held accountable for our physical beauty, which is very good for some of us.
We are held accountable for what we do and how we act.
So beauty is something that we can use to see order. We can use it to see rationality. We can use it to see sort of nature in the grand. And since we can use it to see God, we can use it for all of these things.
But it is not in itself a standard that we have to live to in our physical bodies. Rather, we have to have beautiful actions and beautiful words and beautiful things that we can control. We see the beginning of that at the end of this section, and we see it more as we keep going.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: That's fantastic. Thank you. Ben, could I ask you to read 129 and Ethan to comment?
[00:17:31] Speaker A: Certainly.
[00:17:32] Speaker E: In these matters, we must avoid two things in particular we should do nothing effeminate or soft and nothing harsh or uncouth. Surely we should not concede to actors and orators that such considerations are appropriate for them, but unconnected with us.
Indeed, the customs of theater people are thanks to a discipline of long standing, characterized by so great a sense of shame that no one may step on the stage without a breechcloth, for they fear that if an accident occurred, parts of the body might be revealed that it is not seemly to see. According to our own custom, indeed, adult sons do not bathe with their fathers, nor sons in law with their fathers in law. We ought therefore, to preserve a sense of shame of this sort, especially as nature herself is our mistress and guide.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So Cicero has used actors to make his argument before. Right. And I think we have another example of this kind of thing here that is it unseemly to repeat myself, but anyway, he says that, as we know, actors are at the bottom of the social hierarchy in Roman society.
But here he says, well, again, even actors know that they must avoid wardrobe malfunctions. It's very important for them not to do that. They understand that. And if the rest of us are of higher social status and good sense than actors, then certainly we would pay the same attention to this matter and avoid doing something unseemly, like exposing ourselves in a way that is inappropriate.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought of that. Exact same bit from episode 18 I wrote in my notes here. Even actors quoting Ethan from before and I would add here that we obviously here should be steering a middle path between being too soft and being too harsh.
So we don't want to do either one of these things in our behavior, in our public presentation, in the way that we are perceived, in sort of the vision of ourselves and the manner that we offer ourselves to other people for their sort of sensory and conversational, the presence that we offer to them.
He refers at the end to this idea we should preserve shame because nature herself is our mistress and our guide. And we're up again here against the thing, Coyle, that you were just mentioning.
This is in part of what is in dispute, in a conflict between Stoics and Cynics, is what does nature require? How much instruction does nature give us?
Cicero here looks like he's kind of on the maximalist side, that if we look at nature, we find things that tell us about the rationality of our bodies and of behavior, and we can conform our social conventions to that. So to say that something is merely socially conditioned, merely a social convention, is not to say that it's arbitrary or that it's irrational.
Here Cicero is indicating, even to the extent of bathing and prohibitions on nudity, that we are firmly grounded in nature. Here. He doesn't give much of an argument for this. He's more sort of presenting and teaching his own way. But it seems to me that if we wanted to really dig down to the philosophical foundations, we'd have to really have it out about just what we see in nature and how we justify seeing it there and making it the basis then of our behavior and our social order.
Catherine?
[00:21:22] Speaker C: Yeah, there's in a similar vein, there's a sense in which a lot of modern readers even would question, well, but different cultures have different standards of what is proper and what is improper.
But I think Cicero's response, as indicated here, would be, well, but there are some constants, there are some things that we all know, and even for the cultures that don't do that, you'll often find that there's a period when children are sort of taught not to feel bad about this thing.
So whatever it is.
But there's almost an overcoming of the natural shame in order to have a standard that does not go with nature. And so Cicero would actually, I think, point to that phenomenon even to say, well, but nature still teaches us. And the word that the translation says is mistress is magistra, which is teacher. So nature is our teacher and our guide as well.
So you have that bit there as well as there is the Avoidance of being not just overly harsh, but what he calls rusticus unurbane.
Rustic, not taught. I think the teaching is very important for Cicero.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: That's good, Coyle.
[00:23:00] Speaker D: Yeah, and I think in this section we see a little bit. So, Chris, like you mentioned, the question of what is nature doing?
How do we know who's right?
And then kind of what Catherine brought in.
Every culture has some agreement, right? Some points where we say, hey, there's a line here. And Cicero is sort of teasing out, well, the line of agreement is really moderation, right? When we're raising our children, we don't want them to be too weak, but we also don't want them to be cruel, right. We want there to be some kind of middle ground.
In the same way we avoid doing things that are effeminate or soft, but we also avoid doing things that are harsh or uncouth.
That middle ground, yeah, we disagree on where the middle ground is, but everyone has some idea of a middle ground that we're aiming for.
Now, I don't know how far I would push that in this text, but that seems to be the balance he's trying to strike here.
[00:24:03] Speaker E: Yeah. I mean, a lot of what people said is really interesting about this whole sort of nature nurture or nature convention kind of dynamic. And one of the things that's kind of interesting about Cicero's position is, on the one hand, he's sort of arguing that, hey, nature sort of, again, teaches us, right? We have this sense of shame.
We recoil naturally at being presented with things that are, you know, uncouth or they're inappropriate or indecent. At the same time, we also, he says here we have to, like, cultivate it, right? We have to, like, cultivate it and preserve it. And we have to be, as you, as a couple of other folks were just saying, it's something we have to, like, teach and pass on. So, I mean, there is kind of this interesting shifting way he kind of talks about it like that.
The other thing I mean, I think to keep in mind is as a good Roman, right, As a good, proud Roman and inheritor of what he thinks of as like the great, you know, traditions and customs of Rome, I do think that that Cicero's kind of got this idea that Rome, you know, Rome is like the apex of civilization, right? And it is the one that is acting. Roman customs are natural, are in line with nature, in line with reason, right? And it's a good thing for Rome to kind of spread, right? So, I mean, there's. There's. I Think all that also going on with with C.
[00:25:26] Speaker D: Very good.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Thanks, Ben.
Ethan, could I ask you to read chapter 130 and I'll do. First comment.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: There are two types of beauty. One includes gracefulness and the other dignity.
We ought to think gracefulness a feminine quality and dignity a masculine one. Therefore, a man should both remove from his person every unworthy adornment and also be wary of comparable faults in his gestures and movements.
For the movements taught in the palaestra are often somewhat distasteful and some of the gestures used by actors are not free from affectation.
In either case, what is upright and straightforward is praised. Furthermore, the dignity of one's appearance must be preserved by fine coloring and coloring by exercising the body.
One should also add a neatness that is neither distasteful nor over fussy, but just enough to avoid boorish and uncivilized neglectfulness. A similar rationale should be applied in the matter of dress. Here, as in most things, the intermediate course is the best.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Ethan, may I ask you to read just the first half of chapter 131, because I think that brings us to a close. We can conclude the episode there.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: We must also beware of adopting too effeminate a languidness in our gait so that we look like carriages in solemn procession, or of making excessive haste when we are in a hurry. If we do that, we begin to puff and pant, our expressions change and we distort our faces. Such things are a strong sign that we do not possess constancy.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Thank you, Ethan.
[00:27:09] Speaker D: That's.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: We're in the middle of chapter 131, which is, I think, the farthest we'll read for this episode. But my comment. I wanted to get as far as that last word there because it's the word that concluded the concept that concluded our previous episode that constancy is best in all things. And this is the sort of measure of seemliness. Are you maintaining a constant, regular, self controlled character? And so we have advice here about gracefulness and dignity. I don't know quite what he means about avoiding unworthy adornment. Adornments, sort of maybe accoutrements of your person and dress are not worthy of your dignity, your station, like, I don't know, silly hat or something like that.
But also not to be fussy, not to be languid. I think kind of like slouching, you know, like Shaggy from Scooby Doo when you're walking or huffing and puffing. Because not. Not because it's morally wrong in. In the sense that we would recognize, but because it's just, it doesn't look good. Right. Here you are, you're red in the face, your breath is heaving. Who wants to look at that? It's not respectful to the people that you are presenting yourself to.
So that's my take on this sort of tidying up very small, seemingly trivial details. But again, nothing is exempt from the demand that we maintain decorum and rationality and seemliness and the order of nature in our behavior. Catherine
[00:28:35] Speaker C: yes, there is an attention to detail here that is quite amazing. There's, I think, the unseemly ornaments. Yes, Chris, they would be things that would be unfitting.
So the Romans have a big thing about not displaying one's luxury or one's wealth with accoutrements.
So for a man to wear too much jewelry, for a woman to wear too much jewelry, actually, both of those are considered unseemly for the Romans if it's a woman for her to wear too much expensive jewelry. Those sorts of things are, I think, the kinds of things that Cicero is laying out, particularly as he's saying that there is a difference between venustas, which is what our translation says, gracefulness, it's charm, elegance, something like that, and then dignitas, the dignity that one is a feminine virtue and one is a masculine virtue of behavior.
And so for a Roman man to have ornaments or behavior or something, that would be venustas, that would show venustas, that would be unseemly because he's using a womanly virtue instead of a manly virtue.
So those sorts of details, even down to the things that must be maintained in terms of one must exercise one's body in order to have the. The proper amount of color and things like that.
Those are things that we all have control. As Coyle, you were saying earlier, those are all things that we have some control over. And so the control should be even down to the moments of is one charming or is one dignified?
[00:30:32] Speaker D: Coyle yeah, this is, I was going to say something very similar to what Catherine said. This is the Jordan Peterson section of today's Reading, where it's stand up straight, hold your shoulders erect and look people in the eye and all of that. But because this is under the umbrella of beauty, these are the things that you can control.
You and I cannot make ourselves into supermodels, not even with all of the modern technology and plastic surgery at our disposal. It doesn't work that.
But you can stand up straight, you can wear tasteful clothing, you can walk at a reasonable Pace that is not too slow and not too fast, like you can hit moderation in all of these things.
That's all within our control. And the question of whether or not we do that is the true standard of beauty that we'll be judged by or that we should be judging each other by, not the mere physical standard. That's just an accident of birth.
At least that's how I would read this section.
[00:31:36] Speaker E: Yeah. And I would add what Coyle mentioned and comment on the last chapter about the moderate course being the right course. The very Aristotelian kind of. Aristotelian mean kind of idea between being ostentatious and being completely unadorned, where you're not covering the things that need to be covered and stuff. One thing also that Katherine said strikes me as interesting is again, there's this theme that's come up in the last few chapters about there are things that are of necessity, kind of indecent. Right. But still we do that. So you should exercise because you need to have the right color. Right. And that requires exercise. And so. But you might have to, you know, exercising is not something you should, like, do out in public. Right. Because then that's kind of distasteful. And I was even. And I may be reading this in, but I was even thinking about, imagine, you know, you're going to the gym and. And people are lifting and shouting so loud so you can tell how much they're lifting. Right. I feel like Cicero would say, no, no, that's showing inconstancy. Right. That's very distasteful. So even if you have to do that kind of thing, then make sure you're in a place of exercise, not out in public.
So there are these interesting things going on there.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: Ethan, back to you, a few comments on this. So, first of all, this is one of the passages that reminds me of what Plato has to say about the guardians in the Republic. He says the guardians must be beautiful. They must be graceful in their appearance, in their comportment, and so on.
So this is part of how a ruling class maintains authority, by having the appearance of respectfulness, of being in control, of being dressed to advantage, but not in a way that is showy, which would make you contemptible. So these are a member of the ruling order ought to be beautiful in this way and in order that those whose authority is to be respected should be respectful or respectable.
And the other point that I would note here is that perhaps it didn't need to be said so much in Cicero's time, but that beauty for a man and for a woman are different.
They are different standards. They're different things. And so a man should not be effeminate, he should not dress like a woman, and a woman should not dress like a man. There are different standards of beauty which they ought to observe, which are appropriate given the way that nature made them.
[00:34:23] Speaker D: That's great.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: That's a fantastic comment. I think, for us to conclude with we're down here. We ended in the middle of chapter 131 of book one of On Duties. I want to thank all four of my co hosts, Catherine Coyle, Ben and Ethan for being with us on this episode 21 of the Cicero On Duties podcast. We hope you'll subscribe to this podcast, share it with a friend, help to promote it, maybe go back and start over with episodes that you've missed. If you've come in here at this one, we'll see you again next week where we'll go further into On Duties. Thank you for watching.
[00:34:58] Speaker D: Goodbye.
