Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Chris Anadale: Hello and welcome to another episode of Cicero On Duties, a production of the Ciceronian Society. We are reading through all of Cicero's De Officiis with scholars of the Ciceronian Society. I'm Chris Anadale and joining me this week are Ethan Alexander Davy and Catherine Bradshaw, two of our regular co hosts.
I want to remind people here at the beginning that the Ciceronian Society is not a Cicero Studies Society. We are an interdisciplinary group of Christian scholars dedicated to the study of tradition, place, and things divine. A line which comes from Cicero, our inspiration and namesake. But we're also dedicated to training and supporting Christian scholars and encouraging them in various projects of civic renewal in America today. So we'd encourage you to learn more about our programming, our conferences, our symposia, our other podcast, and our peer reviewed journal. Please go to ciceroniansociety.org to find out more about us and our many activities Activities in On Duties we are now partway through getting towards the end of book two, and we're going to begin today with chapter 65. Ethan, may I ask you to read that? And Catherine to take lead Comment
[00:01:19] Ethan Alexander-Davey: Kind services which are affected by personal effort rather than by lavish distributions, may be bestowed both on the nation as a whole and on individual citizens.
For to attend to someone's interests in law, to help him by one's counsel, and generally to assist as many as possible with that sort of knowledge, tends strongly to increase one's own influence and others. Gratitude. Therefore, among the many splendid things about our ancestors, was that they always held in highest honor the learning of our excellently constituted civil law and its interpretation. Indeed, before the present unsettled time, our leading men themselves maintained the practice.
But now the resplendency of this knowledge, along with our honors and all our degrees of standing, has been eclipsed. And that is all the more unworthy because it has happened in the lifetime of a man who was equal in honor to all his predecessors, and in knowledge has easily surpassed them. This type of service, then, is gratifying to many, and an appropriate way of binding men to you by kind services.
[00:02:29] Chris Anadale: Why don't you take 66 as well, and we'll comment on them together closely
[00:02:33] Ethan Alexander-Davey: Akin to this discipline, but an ability both weightier and more gratifying and glamorous, is that of making speeches. For what is superior to eloquence, whether the admiration of one's hearers, or the hope of those in need, or the gratitude of those whom one has defended, is in question.
Therefore, our ancestors gave to eloquence the form of standing among civil professions. If a man is both a skillful speaker and takes hard work lightly, and if he undertakes, without reluctance or remuneration, to defend a large number of clients, as was the habit of our forefathers, the opportunity for kind services and for patronage at law will be wide open for him.
[00:03:19] Katherine Bradshaw: Ah, Cicero, the orator praises eloquence.
So this. This section we.
A couple episodes ago, there was the discussion of whether it's good to prosecute or defend, but this is a bit broader.
So this is. This gets to. The Roman custom of an advocate is not. It's not just like someone you pay. And like our modern lawyers, you know, in a civil court, it would be someone who, yes, would take remuneration of some kind, but was often a patron of the person he was defending, or would often be someone that was known. And so it was a. It was considered a favor.
And so this then ties into Cicero's discussion of doing favors for other people very nicely.
And then his view of eloquence as having been Deletus.
And yes, that's where we got our word. Delete it. It went away.
He's mourning this fact.
The. And the. The man, he says, who is equal in honor to all his predecessors and in knowledge has easily surpass them. This is one of his friends, Sulpicius Rufus, who was still alive at the time, which is why he doesn't get named. It's considered improper to praise somebody this publicly when they're still alive. And so that's why he gets just sort of obliquely referenced.
But even eloquence can be used in the service of others without necessarily a tangible gain for the Romans.
[00:05:16] Chris Anadale: Yeah, I think this is coming towards the end of book two, where we're talking about the advantageous and the useful. And here we're getting some positive advice. Two things that are very useful. Not lavish distributions, not pouring out money for public spectacles and the like, but. But actual kind services by personal effort. That's not only a good way to bind people to you, it's supremely honorable. And it's all the more sort of cast into high relief by the fact that in the present troubled times, we can sort of feel the sorrow. Across the ages, it has declined in relative popularity. So there's almost kind of here the lament for a kind of gentleman statesman culture, which has been sort of eclipsed by the rise of various tyrants who are still sort of at it and contending for power. As this book's being written in Cicero's exile And eloquence then as well, Cicero never will lose an opportunity to recommend eloquence to his son. Eloquence, rightly used as one of the most glorious things that a gentleman statesman can do for the state, for his friends and for himself. And so there's nothing but advantage to be had by the right use of eloquence. That's the kind of Roman ideal, in contrast, maybe to the what they'd see as the more kind of isolated, passive ideal of pure wisdom and contemplation that we would associate with the Athenians, with the Greeks and their philosophy.
[00:06:46] Ethan Alexander-Davey: Yes, whenever Cicero speaks of decline, which is often in this book, it often feels very current to me. So just for a start, the praise of eloquence itself, the art of eloquence, which our ancestors have maintained for generations and is now being lost.
And again, his assertion that true eloquence has power.
And I think of where we are today, where most political speeches are supposed to be written at the eighth grade level, at which it is not really possible to have eloquence because otherwise people won't understand it.
And then also in these passages, again, the relationship between those who use their eloquence to defend and those who are defended is much more personal.
It's much more akin to friendship. You would use your eloquence to defend a friend, an ally, someone with whom you have a long standing relationship.
So it's not something to be right. It's not a service for which you pay money, even though there may be some kind of compensation. But it's rooted in something deeper than that.
[00:08:04] Chris Anadale: Right, Very good. Well, we're now at chapter 67. Catherine, may I ask you to read 67 and 68 together and then I'll take off lead comment.
[00:08:15] Katherine Bradshaw: Certainly my very subject would advise me here also to deplore the interruption, not to say destruction of eloquence. Did I not fear to seem to be complaining on my own account? But we can see how many orators have perished. We see that few who still live show promise and fewer still ability. But how many are full of audacity? It is true that not all, perhaps not even very many, can become experienced in law or skilled speakers. But it is still possible to assist many men by personal effort, by seeking kind services for them, recommending them to the jurors and the magistrates, by watching over another's interests, by soliciting for them those men that give advice or defend. Those who do this obtain the highest degree of gratitude and their diligence spreads itself extremely widely.
Now, one does not need to be warned, for it is obvious to take care that in trying to help some people, one does not upset others. For often one may hurt either those whom one should not hurt or those whom it is inexpedient to hurt. If one does so imprudently, one shows thoughtlessness, if knowingly rashness. If you offend anyone unwittingly, you must, to the best of your ability, offer as excuses the reason why it was necessary to do what you did and why you could not do anything else. And you must compensate for what seems to be an offense by other efforts and dutiful services.
[00:09:44] Chris Anadale: I take this to be some of Cicero's practical advice. Here's how to go about helping people, especially if you don't have his oratorical gifts. So suppose your eloquence is kind of topped out at a relatively mediocre level. When a friend of yours is in legal trouble, you can't spring to his assistants and say, I have the words and the speaking skill that's capable of moving the jury in your favor. There are plenty of things you can do besides, right?
Including, I was impressed here that he says, not everyone can become a skilled speaker or a lawyer, as we might say. But one can do kind services. One can recommend them to jurors, one can watch over their interests, and also one can find them a good speaker on their behalf when they want this. And those who do this obtain the highest degree of gratitude.
It seems to me that he's placing this up on a par in terms of the interpersonal relationship, the payoff. And keeping in mind the theme of the. Of the book, too, is the useful, right? Here's something useful, right? You inspire the gratitude of your friends by behaving in this way, only to warn, of course, in the next chapter that you must not overdo it in the sense that by. In helping one, you upset another. I'll leave that for you guys to comment on as well. Ethan.
[00:11:02] Ethan Alexander-Davey: Sure. Right. And I would agree that I think gratitude is the key idea here. And I think in the modern context, we tend to be suspicious of these kind of personal relationships, of returning favors, that somehow it's corrupt.
And from a certain point of view, it may be. But the idea of having, I don't want to say a system, but a habit or a custom of doing things that generate gratitude.
Gratitude is one of those things that sustains social relations, maintains them, and maintains friendships. And without gratitude, how do we feel any obligation to other people? So I like this focus on gratitude. And then, of course, as Chris just said, it's possible, even if you're, I suppose you are very good at eloquence, you might use that to zing some people, and you have to be careful about that as well, that there are some people whom, as a question of justice or morality, you should not harm or zing too much with your eloquence or your skill in the legal system.
But also there are some whom it is not prudent to zing and you have to be careful about that as well. So this is, yeah, as you said, this is the practical advice for the statesman who has to navigate all of these situations and both maintain his own reputation and maintain his friendships and gratitude from, from the, the people that he has dealings with.
[00:12:45] Katherine Bradshaw: Yes. In the, your, your, Ethan, your discussion of the, the way that the society works is very helpful because I think for us modern Americans, this is so foreign to not just have a network of favors that are given and received and all of that, but also just the concept of owing. Gratitude, I think, is becoming more and more foreign to our culture. And so in a culture where we are not easily grateful or we're not trained to be grateful, I think Cicero brings a good reminder of, no, it's actually useful to generate gratitude. It's good first of all, but then it's also useful.
And so they, they go together. And he'll talk more about that in book three, of course, but, but they do go together here.
And I appreciate that when he talks about not offending people, he also says, but if you do, here is what one must do in order to, you know, make, make things better and to reconcile with the person one has offended. And here are the sorts of excuses you should offer. And these sorts of things, not just like, don't offend someone. It's, you will offend someone at some point. So here's the way to fix it.
And it gets back to way back in book one, I think Cicero said someone who is actually sorry should be given more leeway than someone who is not even in a legal sense. And so here we apply that to the, the personal realm as well.
[00:14:40] Chris Anadale: If I might, might put in one more. One or two more comments impressed by what I've said before. I think Cicero's dad advice well, you know, here's what to do and then here's what to do when that doesn't work. And then here' sort of last resort. It feels very paternal. I'm thinking, especially as a father myself.
The thing, Ethan, that your comment Inspired in my mind. The thought of it inspired in me is that Cicero is still very much a believer in the moral and social health of his society, at least prior to the recent troubles and unsettled affairs. Despite all of this, he's still sort of extolling a system in which people could trust each other and networks of what we would call back. Scratching and trading favors with a sort of implication of corruption and being contrary to the public good and public order is the very business of civic life. Because you're a league of gentlemen who are all honorable people, and one of us falls and maybe I'll sort of overlook, as we said a few weeks ago, I'll have to overlook or sort of soft pedal some of the offenses of this one fellow from the past because he was my patron and he was very kind to me. But this is just what one does. And maybe that's one of the biggest moral gaps between our time and his is. I don't know. I think we are far more jaded and cynical about our own times and the moral health of our elite.
So any comment on that? Since I sort of threw that out without notice,
[00:16:13] Ethan Alexander-Davey: I agree. I mean, it seems we're all on the same page on that comparison between our society and theirs, where it seems like we're making every attempt in our own society to prevent relationships of gratitude from developing. For instance, it occurs to me the way that academia works in the United States, in most places, the worst thing that could possibly happen is that you could stay at the university where you got your PhD. You have to leave, because for you to stay would be corrupt.
So it's. It's a different consideration than maintaining relationships.
[00:16:52] Chris Anadale: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:55] Katherine Bradshaw: I think there's also to draw upon thoughts that you've had in the past, that you've expressed in the past, Ethan, that there's. There's an expectation for Cicero that the elite will behave in this manner and they will lead the society in this manner, and therefore they will have the virtues to exercise that leadership.
Whereas our more egalitarian society is not wanting the elites to set the moral example.
[00:17:25] Chris Anadale: Yeah, that's a really good point. Let me push us on into the next couple of chapters. I think I'll read chapters 69 and 70. And, Ethan, have you comment?
In assisting other men, it is customary to regard either their conduct or their fortune.
Therefore, it is easy for men to say, as they commonly do, that when bestowing kind services, they respond to a man's conduct and not to his fortune.
The words are honorable, but who is there in the end, who does not, when giving service, prefer to the cause of an excellent but needy person, the gratitude of a fortunate but powerful one.
For our will on the whole inclines more to the man from whom a readier and swifter recompense seems likely to come.
We should, however, attend more carefully to the nature of things. For the needy person, if he is also a good man, may indeed be unable to requite his gratitude, but he can certainly have it. As someone aptly said, the man who has a sum of money has not repaid it, and the man who has repaid it does not have it. But if someone has requited gratitude, he still has it, and if he has it, he has requited it.
But those who think that they are wealthy, honored and blessed do not want even to be under obligation from a kind service. For they think that they have been benefactors themselves. Simply by accepting something, even if it is large, they suspect that something will be demanded or expected of them in return.
And they consider that accepting patronage and being labeled as a client is tantamount to death.
If, however, you do anything for a poor man, he thinks that you are observing not his fortune but himself. He strives to appear grateful not only to the man who deserves his gratitude, but also to those others from whom he expects something, for he needs the help of many now. Nor if he happens to fulfil some service himself, does he boast of it exaggeratedly, but even deprecates it, depreciates it. Sorry again. You must see that if you defend a wealthy and fortunate man, the gratitude that you will receive will be limited to him alone, or perhaps to his children. But if the man is poor but upright and modest, all lowly but decent men, of which there is a great mass among the people, see that there are defenses prepared for them,
[00:19:56] Ethan Alexander-Davey: right? So building on what we've been saying, right, first of all, you have this comparison between relationships based on gratitude and relationships that are mere monetary transactions. So if you pay for a service, once you've paid for it, that's it, that's the end of it, and there's no more obligation, the transaction is complete, the relationship is finished. But gratitude, when you do something for someone who perhaps couldn't pay you back with money, he will remain grateful and that feeling of gratitude stays. And so there's more of a sense of long term obligation in that kind of relationship.
And then when we get to this other point that he makes, that the other reason it may be a good idea, it may be useful to you to help a poor man, because if he is a good man, if he is upright, then in defending him, you, the gentleman statesman, will get the reputation as someone who defends the honest poor.
And other men will see you in that way as a defender of those who are just, but perhaps don't have the resources to defend themselves. So you improve your standing among the people by doing that.
[00:21:21] Katherine Bradshaw: Yes. And the, the. The benefits just spread everywhere for, for this act.
And it's interesting to me that he points out that there is a saying that it is better to give to a, an honorist poor man than to a prosperous, less honorable man.
And the, the saying is nice, but who does it?
So it's that, that bit of. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's an, a common human impulse to be beneficent to someone out of whom we expect to get something rather than taking the, the. The character of the person, the recipient into account.
Whereas long term this would be giving to the poorer. But good man is actually more useful because the prosperous don't even want to acknowledge that they've received a favor. This is very similar to Aristotle's discussion of the, the. The. The man of great spirit, the magnanimous man that, that he, he does not wish to be under obligations to other people. He wants to put other people into obligations to him because he feels that being in obligation to someone else is beneath him.
And so similarly, the more fortunate there is this feeling of, well, but I'll be expected to do something else for this, for the person. So therefore I don't really want to play up the fact that they did something for me. Whereas the person who knows that he owes already says, oh, how much you've done for me. And he tries to appear grateful to everyone else also, both out of actual gratitude and because he knows that it's to his advantage as well to do that.
So the benefits just keep coming.
[00:23:19] Chris Anadale: I'm impressed in this passage by Cicero's psychological observations about the psychology both of the giver and of the receiver.
From the giver he's first to acknowledge, well, everybody says you should do this, but all of us are inclined, if we have two sort of equally virtuous men, to help the wealthy, one who can perhaps repay us more easily.
There's also, I think, a little bit here something kind of edging towards a Roman version of what we'll later know as the Christian preferential option for the poor, that the poor are special to God and should receive special attention. Cicero's reaching similar conclusions on different grounds, but the psychology as well of the receiver. The suggestion that, well, when you give to a rich person, he's not going to be as grateful. In fact, he may think he's doing you a favor by accepting what you're giving to him. Whereas in the case of the poor, you give to the poor, the worthy poor.
Not only is he grateful, but everyone in a similar situation identifies with him and is grateful. And here's another maybe sort of difference between the psychology of rich and poor. A rich man thinks of himself and his own merits. A poor man realizes is that gifts given to the poor are given perhaps regardless of merit, or given sort of in spite of circumstance. And so there's a sort of social spreading out of the gratitude that the poor feel. In that case, I think that was really quite remarkable and subtle. For an observation about his own time and perhaps also about ours.
I'd like to conclude this episode with chapter 71. Ethan, if you would read that. And Catherine, begin comment. We'll talk about that and then wrap up.
[00:25:02] Ethan Alexander-Davey: Therefore, I think it better to invest kind services among good men than among men of fortune. In general, every effort should be made so that we can satisfy every type. If, however, the matter leads to conflict, then we must surely summon Themistocles as our authority. Someone consulted him over whether he should give his daughter to a good but poor man or to a less upright but wealthy one. I myself, he replied, prefer a man that lacks money to money that lacks a man. And yet conduct has been corrupted and depraved by admiration for riches. What does someone else's great wealth concern any one of us? It may perhaps help him who has it. It does not always even do that, but grant that it does. He may, it is true, be better provided. But how will he be more honorable if he is also a good man? His riches should not hinder you from assisting him, provided only that they do not help you to let every decision of ours depend not on how wealthy a man is, but on what he is like. The final rule in providing kind services and personal assistance is to fight neither against fairness nor on behalf of injustice. For justice is the foundation of lasting commendation and repute. Without it, nothing can be worthy of praise.
[00:26:27] Katherine Bradshaw: Yes, the Themistocles quote. So here we have another exemplum, another famous A story of a famous man. And we're going to offer him as an example of virtue. So Themistocles, of course, is the Athenian who leads Athens to create a navy during the Persian wars. Are in preparation for the Persian wars. And then is the leader of the Athenian forces during the Persian wars. So he's very shrewd and he's known for being very shrewd.
But then he offers this.
It is still. It is actually shrewd, but it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily appear shrewd up front.
On the. I prefer a man that lacks money to money that lacks man.
So you have this, this example offered first. And then what I find interesting is the.
The little note at the end of this section where, oh, the last thing I need to say is that you should not use your generosity to help those who don't deserve it or who will do worse because you offer them money. So it gets back to the lavish spending thing, thing that he has talked about earlier, but also even in small sums, the. The character of the recipient keeps coming up as the main thing. And therefore one has to be the gentleman statesman has to be careful that his giving will promote virtue in the community, even on the individual level, rather than promoting vice.
[00:28:10] Chris Anadale: I noticed as well the wrap up. And it's of course as the rhetorician as the orator Cicero is always thinking of concluding with here's my parting words. The entire previous five chapters condensed into two sentences. Here's the thing to remember, to memorize, to always keep in front of you. And in this case it's equally impressive and it's a return to these very Ciceronian themes. Right? The superiority of virtue to wealth. You seek advantage by first seeking virtue and always upholding justice. Nothing can be worthy of praise unless it is in conformity with justice. And again, this kind of anti Machiavellian determination to emphasize when we talk about reputation and praise, we should talk about deserving reputation and deserving praise. The only way to do that is through virtue and justice. Therefore, my son, never depart from the path of justice. Always prefer that, and you will find it is always to your advantage. And it seems to me the entire Machiavellian project is really premised upon the absolute rejection of that insight that the way to be praised is to deserve praise. And the way to deserve praise is to be just. And that gets us to the heart of, I think, a modern versus ancient philosophical problem that comes down to politics today.
[00:29:32] Ethan Alexander-Davey: Yes. And to add to that, about the relationship between virtue and advantage, I particularly like the Themistocles quotation. And it also makes me think of Xenophon, who is in the background here as well. Xenophon gets cited at the end of book two.
So Xenophon would say, you have wealth, but you don't have virtues, you're going to lose your wealth.
The one who is not truly a man is not a man of good repute and of the proper virtues will not be able to hold on to his wealth in any case. So it's important first to be the man, and then wealth is always secondary.
[00:30:21] Chris Anadale: Great. I appreciate it. I'm glad that we've come to the end here of chapter 71 of book 2. Getting very close to the end of the book. I believe chapter 90 is the very last end, is the very last chapter of book two.
So we've had a great episode today. I want to thank my co hosts, Catherine Bradshaw and Ethan Alexander Davy. You've been listening to the Cicero on Duties podcast from the Ciceronian Society. Thanks for watching today. Goodbye, Sam.
