Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome back to the Cicero On Duties podcast. Reading through all of Deoficiis with the scholars of the Ciceronian Society. To learn more about us and our programming, please visit ciceroniansociety.org I'm Chris Anadale of Mount St. Mary's University.
Joining me today are our past co hosts Catherine Bradshaw of the Ancient Language Institute and Ethan Alexander Davy of Campbell University. Welcome to you both.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Thank you for having us. Gil.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: We are partway through maybe about two thirds of the way through book one of On Duties. We've gotten as far as section 115 in a long section dealing with the virtues connected with seemliness or decorum, paying attention to the image you present to other people and the way that they re to your actions.
So for this section, why don't Catherine, I ask you to read chapters 115 and 116 straight through. And Ethan, I'll give you the first comment on those. Please go ahead.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: All right, to the two rules of which I spoke above, a third is added. This is imposed by some chance or circumstance.
There is also a fourth, which we assume for ourselves by our own decision.
Kingdoms, military powers, nobility, political honors, wealth, and influence, as well as the opposites of these are in the gift of chance and governed by circumstances. In addition, assuming a role that we want ourselves is something that proceeds from our own will. As a consequence, some people apply themselves to philosophy, others to civil law, and others again to oratory, while even in the case of the virtues, different men prefer to excel in different of them.
Those whose fathers or ancestors won glory by outstanding performance in a particular field generally devote themselves to excelling in the same way themselves. Quintus Mucius, the son of Publius, did so in civil law, and Paulus son Africanus in military matters. Some indeed add to that inherited from their father's praise, that is, all their own. Africanus, again, is an example, though through his oratory he increased the glory that he had gained in war.
Conon's son Timotheus did the same.
This was his father, his equal in military praise, and he added to that praise glory for his learning and intellectual talent. Sometimes, though, it turns out that some people decline to imitate their ancestors and pursue some course of their own.
Those who exert themselves the most in this way are on the whole, men born of unknown ancestors, who aim for great things themselves.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: All right, so there are a few things going on in this passage.
And also for context, I believe we ended in the last section that we discussed. We had ended with Cicero's injunction to us to do the thing to which we are best suited.
But as he continues with this argument, there are circumstances in which things are thrust upon us. So we may have sought office because we thought we had a duty to do so, or office may have been thrust upon us and then we have to deal with those circumstances as well and apply our knowledge and our best talents to those positions that either our own ambition or circumstances have thrust upon us.
And then in the next section we have some of these considerations about the duty or our relationship to our ancestors, which I always find quite interesting.
Catherine probably knows more about this than I do, but we can say at least that it was fairly typical for the Roman upper class to think of themselves as being in a position to take on the same responsibilities as their fathers and ancestors. And so that's what he's talking about in the next paragraph here. It is appropriate to follow in one's father's footsteps, although one may be able to add to the glory by acquiring some new skill. So in the example of Africanus and his son here, that he was able to add oratory to the military glory in which his father had distinguished himself.
So this consideration of part of decorum is finding your place in the context of what your ancestors have done and being able to both live up to their example and possibly increase their glory, but certainly not to disgrace them by using your talents inappropriately.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: That's great.
I agree with you on that entirely. And my own thoughts on this went in largely the same direction that when the question of choice comes up, of course the first thing to speak about is are you following in your ancestors footsteps? And there's a little bit, felt a little bit pointed there at the end, that of the people who choose a complete, completely new path, not tread by their ancestors. That's usually people who have no illustrious ancestors to speak of, otherwise they would go into the family trade.
My own thoughts First, Cicero refers here to the two considerations before. So in speaking about the kind of elements or layers of decorum, he began a few chapters ago with common elements, things that we all share as human beings that consider appropriate to human excellence in general. Then personal elements of seemliness, things that are appropriate to your own unique character. What Ben Peterson last week called we might call the George Costanza rule, right, the Jason Alexander rule. If you have a certain type, if you're a certain type of person, don't try to cut it cross purposes to that. And then he adds chance. Sometimes opportunities will come your way or there'll be something that will constrict your ability to behave in a certain fashion. You need to respect that and understand it and react accordingly. And then last of all, fourth and I wonder if he means this to be kind of forth in importance as well, the choices that you make. You get to do some choosing. It refers to some people pursue philosophy, others oratory and the like. I think of college students being pushed to choose a major as though your choice in the matter is the all important thing that causes it to be an excellent path for you. Here he's putting that last and even that is coming sort of subsequent to your sort of reaction to what you've inherited in terms of name as well as talent and resources from your ancestors.
So in addition to that difference between sort of our modern American 21st century assumption that one should steer one's own path being much less important. For Cicero, the question also, I think I would add, is is he really meaning for this to be maybe the least significant of the various factors one must take into account in trying to pursue, trying to a life of seemliness to try to do what is. What is appropriate. Catherine, what do you think?
[00:07:37] Speaker C: There seems to be a sense in which there is this idea that one should take into account everything else and then consult one's own individual feelings. And yes, I am in agreement with both of you on this, that Cicero seems to see it that way. There is also this fact that of the four things, they're all what he calls personae, which is what we would say like role in English.
It's a bit of a play on words because a Persona is the theatrical mask that actors would wear. And we've been talking, Cicero just finished talking about, well, actors pick the role that's best suited for them.
And so I think he's taking this theatrical metaphor even further, that there's not just a Persona that is adopted by actors, but each of these four things is a Persona. It's a role that's been given to us and that we should act in not in the way of being fake, but in the sense of being aware of how that comes across. And so there is a sense in which choice has something to do with it, but it is not the great virtue that modern thinkers seem to put forward. There's also the fact that those that excel their parents and go in a different direction. I think Cicero might be subtly. Well, subtly, that's an interesting word to use with Cicero and his own self ideas. But I think he's alluding for Marcus, his son's benefit to the fact that he Himself is not from an illustrious family. He is from a night, you know, a good family in a. In the provinces. But he chose a different path than his ancestors. He went to Rome. He became consul. He rose to the very top.
And so I think there's a sense in which he's saying, now don't now remember, like we've. We've done something else. We. We don't necessarily have to go in our father's footsteps, though that is the kind of most obvious way of honoring one's ancestors appropriately.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Right.
Very good. Well, let's move on to the next section.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Could I just add one point on what Catherine said? I believe we've already gone over the passage where Cicero says to his son that it is, you will now. You will now inherit my glory and my reputation and carry it on. So Cicero was himself a new man. His father was not in the senatorial class, but now that he's in it, he expects and hopes his son to take up that mantle and carry it on.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Very good, Ethan. I think we'll tackle 119 and 120 together. If you would like to read those, and I'll do the first comment.
I'm so sorry. 1. 117 and 118.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: I think that's right. Okay.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: So sorry.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: We ought, therefore, when we seek what is seemly, to grasp all these things with heart and mind. First of all, though, we must decide who and what we wish to be and what kind of life we want.
That deliberation is the most difficult thing of all. For it is, as adulthood is approaching, just when his counsel is at its very weakest, that each person decides that the way of leading a life that he must admire should be his own. The result is that he becomes engaged upon a fixed manner and course of life before he is able to judge what might be best.
Prodicus, as we find in Xenophon, told the story of Hercules, who, when he was just becoming a young man, which is the time given by nature for each to choose the path of life that he will take, went out to a lonely place, and he sat there for a long time while he pondered by himself which path it was better to take. For he could see two, the one of pleasure and the other of virtue.
That could perhaps have happened to Hercules, sprung from the seat of Jupiter. But it is not the same for us.
We imitate those whom each of us thinks he should, and we are drawn to the pursuits and practices, to their pursuits and practices. Moreover, we are generally imbued with our parents advice and led towards their customs and manners. Others are swayed by the judgment of the masses and long especially for the things that seem most glittering to the majority. Some, however, have followed the right path of life, whether by good fortune or by the goodness of their own nature or through parental guidance.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Okay, thank you, Ethan, for commentary. It's interesting here now, talking about how does one choose? Well, one might think that one should deliberate and imagine Hercules going out into the wilderness to just think by himself. From which he immediately says, that's not the way we have to do it. We imitate our parents, we imitate whom we value. So our friends, our peers, if it's them or the crowd, the mob, the majority.
So there's this interesting, you know, kind of suggestion that we're really not being philosophical here, are we, in the sense that we would imagine one would sort of very carefully make a choice of what. Of what to do. Again, my image of college student trying to choose a major, it just seems so important in the moment. And it is perhaps of less importance than one might think for one's overall life plan and career prospects, although I doubt I can convince anybody of that.
But it's the kind of thing that we need to be aware of the social factors that we draw from our parents and from our friends and from even the crowd, if that's important to us or from our own inner nature. And it seems like we shouldn't be ashamed of that. We shouldn't feel that we are being fake or inauthentic or bullied. That this is just the way that it is. This is perhaps connect with, recognize, connected with recognizing that my choice of career should reflect something of my awareness of my. What I've inherited from my parents.
Catherine?
[00:14:19] Speaker C: Yeah, there's.
There is a sense in which he offers that lovely picture and then is rather not dismissive, but almost dismissive and says this is something that would have been fine for Hercules.
I think it's in the sense of that clear choice between pleasure and virtue, where there's only two roads and there's two, because the story is that Hercules went out into the wilderness and met two women. Basically, one was beautiful and pointed him on the easy way of pleasure. And one was a little more stern looking, but was virtue and pointed him on the. The difficult, the more difficult path. There's very. Several very famous paintings of this, usually with virtue pointing up a rocky path, up a mountain or something like that.
But we don't have clear choices like that.
We have the choice between several seemingly good options that might be Virtuous in their own way.
And then he acknowledges that youth is when we are supposed to choose. But it is also the time when he says that it is when there is the most inability to plan temperamentally because of the ancients recognition that youth is a lot more impulsive.
And so we choose something at a time when it will affect the rest of our lives possibly, but we have difficulty getting to the right decision ourselves. So in a sense the advice of others is actually helpful.
Now, Cicero is not a big fan of the crowd per se, but the advice of our parents, the advice of friends, those are all useful. And make up for the fact that youth is the Latin is. It is maxima imbecilitas conciliae. It is the time of the greatest imbecility of counsel,
[00:16:35] Speaker A: meaning self counsel. There I think my ability to sort
[00:16:37] Speaker C: of advise myself of planning, I think is an easier way of thinking.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: Got it, Ethan.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: I agree with what both of you said. I think I would just put it a little bit more starkly because it seems like he's giving us the opposite of the advice that I suppose we're supposed to give or that in the 21st century is given to people, that you can be anything you want and you are in a position to choose that.
And it seems that Cicero's response to that is, are you born of the seed of Jupiter? If you're not, then that's probably not a good approach.
And what occurred to me here is that suppose you're the son of a carpenter. Well, that might be the best path for you to follow. You're familiar with it, your father was capable of it. You probably are too. Whereas following the path that is most appealing, the most glittering to the majority, that's whatever the percentage is today according to surveys of youth who want to become influencers.
And a glittering path, but probably not a good path for very many people. And again, as we've already said, in your youth, that's the time when your power to deliberate is not at its best so right it seems to be he's offering the opposite of the advice that the 21st century culture offers to young people.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Very good, Very good. And not the last time. I'm sure that we'll observe that that Cicero is giving us some advice which rather different from what we would expect to encounter from people online today.
I'll do the next reading. And Catherine, the first comment. I'll take chapters 119 and 120. I might read through the end of the paragraph, the very first sent sentence of 121. Okay.
It is, however, an extremely rare type of person. Who is endowed with outstanding intellectual ability. Or a splendidly learned education, or both.
And who has also had time to deliberate over which course of life he wants, above all, to follow.
In such deliberation, all counsel ought to be referred to the individual's own nature.
For just as in each specific thing that we do. We seek what is seemly according to what and how each of us has been born. As I said above, we must exercise much more care when establishing our whole way of life. So that we can be constant to ourselves for the whole length of our life, not wavering in any of our duties.
Nature carries the greatest weight in such reasoning. And after that, fortune. We should generally take account of both in choosing a type of life. But of nature more. For it is far steadier and more constant. Consequently, it sometimes appears that fortune, like some mortal, is struggling with immortal nature.
When, therefore, someone has adopted a plan of life. Entirely in accordance with his nature.
If it is not a vicious one, let him then maintain constancy. For that most of all is seemly. Unless, perhaps, he comes to realize that he has made a mistake in choosing his type of life.
If that happens, and it can indeed happen.
He ought to change his behaviour and his plans. If circumstances assist such a change, we shall effect it more easily and advantageously. If not, it must be made gradually and tentatively. Just as wise men consider it more seemly gradually to loosen one's ties of friendship. If they become less pleasurable or creditable. Than suddenly to break them off.
If we do change our way of life, every care must be taken so that we appear to have done so with good judgment. Catherine.
[00:20:49] Speaker C: Well, there is so much. Here we return again to the concept of one's nature. And Cicero, of course, loves to talk about appealing to the natural law. But this is one's own individual nature. And yet, even though those two things are different. They both have the sense of being relatively constant. And very difficult to change. If one can change it at all.
And so, in that sense, that's why, as we. As we talked about a couple of episodes ago.
One must consult one's own nature. And he returns to this again, one must keep one's own nature and skill set in mind. Because it's very unlikely that one will gain a new natural ability over the course of time. Now, acquiring skills, yes. But a natural ability, that's something that if we have it, we have it. If we don't, we don't. And so, in order to make sure that one is not having to make great change later.
That deliberation has to. Some deliberation has to happen in accordance with one's nature and figure out what will suit me best.
But Cicero, being a realist, says, well, but sometimes we realize we've made a mistake, and when we do, we cannot just make a change very suddenly.
It must be in a way that, again, is very obvious, that we have thought through it. It's not just that you have thought through it, it's that others must see that you have thought through it. So again, the care for how something affects others.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: So, on this passage, what occurred to me by way of contrast was Plato's description of the democratic soul in the Republic.
The democratic soul is one in which there is no constancy.
The sort of person who has not figured out what his natural talent is and therefore jumps from one thing to the next, from music to drinking to fighting to philosophy, which he doesn't stick with, and so on and so forth. And so the democratic soul is inconstant because it can't select anything and can't choose anything, or can't even discover what its actual talent is.
And so, again, for Cicero, the constancy.
Once you have understood what your nature is, then you should be consistent with it. And it may be necessary, as we've already said, if you discover that you've made a bad choice and that you are not good in the role that you're in, that you may need to carefully plan your way out of it to pursue something else. But one should not, in any case, be skipping from one role, one thing to the next. That is the opposite of what one should do.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. I noticed here that the linkage with Cicero's On Friendship, where he explicitly says this, that if one must break off a friendship, the prudent, the seemly thing to do is to just loosen ties and allow the friend to gradually grow apart. I taught this to a high school class not long ago, and one of the questions that came up is why? Why is it more seemly? Why? Why is it. Why does it seem better for all involved not to make a sharp break, not to even let it be seen that there's. That there was a sharp break, right? And it's.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: It's. It's that.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: That's an interesting ethical principle here, but it has this additional quality of. It also ensures that you are not the democratic man jumping from one thing to the next, but you are behaving moderately prudently, with a certain amount of self Possession. So I have made a bad mistake, but I'm not going to panic. I'm going to sort of steer my way out of this situation gradually and slowly. So always with this kind of self control.
I did like here in this passage, the image of nature and fortune, but nature more. And it's almost as though fortune is the mortal struggling with the immortal, because nature will master the situation. Fortune and chance, whether good luck or bad luck, can maybe have a run for it. But it's nature that we ought to be predominantly listening to because nature is going to have this kind of, you know, God on earth kind of quality in terms of assessing things. And then also the feeling that this is, reminds me of kind of Cicero's dad advice. Right. Well, here's what you should do. Be constant, provided you haven't chosen something vicious or wicked, have you have your son.
And then be constant, unless you've discovered that you've made a mistake, in which case, here's how to sort of, you know, steer your way gradually out of the mistake without. Without introducing chaos or fury into your life.
So that's, I think, really excellent advice. It has. It has that kind of practical flavor to it. Here's what you should do. And if that doesn't work, here's what you should do. And if you've made a mistake, here's the attitude to take towards the mistake that you've made. So you're covered all across the board.
I think the last chapter we'll do for today for this episode is 121. Catherine could ask you to read that one. And Ben, I'm sorry, Ethan, to comment on.
[00:26:40] Speaker C: Certainly.
So 121, you can back up to
[00:26:46] Speaker A: that sentence I read if you prefer.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: The.
[00:26:52] Speaker C: I said a little earlier that we should imitate our ancestors, but I must make some exceptions. First, so that we do not imitate them in their faults. And secondly, if our nature is not strong enough to be able to imitate them in certain respects. Thus, for example, the son of the elder Africanus, who adopted the son of Paulus, could not, because of his poor health, be as like his father as the younger Africanus was like his. If someone can neither defend men in lawsuits, nor grip the people with his speeches, nor wage war, he ought still, however, to show such qualities as are in his power. Justice, keeping faith, liberality, modesty and restraint, so that fewer demands are made upon him where he is deficient. The best inheritance, however, is that passed down to children by their fathers. That glory of virtue and of worthy achievements. That is More excellent than any patrimony to disgrace that must be judged wicked and vicious.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: Right. So I think that especially that last sentence, that was what I was thinking of earlier when I spoke about the duty to ancestors.
So in this passage, the first step is to consider what your ancestors have done and try to live up to that example. And so again, as a Roman aristocrat, this is what you would do.
A big part of your education would be you would have those rings on your fingers with images of your illustrious ancestors, the busts of ancestors in the home, and you would study the lives of those men and to understand what they had achieved, how they had achieved it, and you would use that as your example in life.
Now, it may be that an individual descendant doesn't have all of the natural talents that those ancestors had. And so in that case, one should imitate those virtues that one is capable of imitating. So at least live properly, live in a seemly fashion. But if you don't have the skill for oratory that your ancestor did, then and then perhaps that's not for you. So at least try to follow those, follow in the footsteps you can follow in.
And of course, never do anything that would bring your ancestors into disrepute by yourself doing something shameful.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think what's curious is that in 21st century American culture, it seems to me we associate this perhaps more with an Eastern type of culture. The photos of the ancestors that constantly thinking of, I need to not let them down, I need to extend their influence, their cause, pass on what they've passed on to me. Here it is in Rome and quite central. And I think, Ethan, you said excellently what needs to be said from my perspective about the first part of this chapter, the very end, I just want to reiterate, the best inheritance for any child to receive is the glory of virtue and of worthy achievements from the parents, from the grandparents. This is, of course, what Cicero hopes to hand on to his son to whom he's writing.
But then, of course, the contrary that the charge to the inheritor to disgrace the glory of virtue and the worthy achievements of your father, that has been handed to you as patrimony is wicked and vicious. It's not that you just made a mistake or you had better things to do, or you chose that you wanted to be a race car driver instead of a politician.
If you bring disgrace onto your ancestors, you have done something profoundly wrong and wicked, not just unseemly or unpleasant or a little bit, I might say, offensive.
You failed in some big Big way, according to Cicero. It's interesting to see that kind of idea, that the virtue of your forebears imposes a burden upon you, and you have to rise to meet it. And if you don't, you've made a grievous character error or moral error. Catherine.
[00:31:11] Speaker C: Yes. And Chris, the observation of how great a failing that is is communicated well in Cicero's.
The translation has it, but there's a word in Latin, it's Nephas, which is like a.
It literally means like an unspeakable thing.
It's. It's a. It's an offense against.
Not just one, someone else, but it's almost an offense against nature or the gods. It's. It comes from sacred religious language, and that's the word that Cicero uses for this.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Oh, really? That's nefas.
[00:31:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it's nefas ex vitium and a vice. But it is nefos to do such a thing.
So it's very serious.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: An unspeakable obscenity, perhaps, of something sacrilege that strong.
[00:32:07] Speaker C: Yeah, it has that weight to it.
And it is interesting, Ethan, your point about the skill set being different. There's also this sense in which Cicero talks about, well, okay, you might not have the skill set, but you can at least be virtuous.
So the virtues for Cicero are within everyone's reach.
Those are not. In the little specialized, like, these are the virtuous people. Everyone can be virtuous.
Skill sets may differ, but virtue does not.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: That's great. That's a great place to wrap up, I think. This section, chapter 121 of book one of On Duties, there are 160 chapters, chapters in book one. So we're getting closer and closer to the end now by chapter count.
I want to thank you, Catherine, and you, Ethan, for joining me for this episode of the On Duties podcast. We hope that you will subscribe to this channel, this podcast like, and share this episode with your friends. Share it on social media.
And please join us next week where we'll look into more of book one. Thanks for watching today. Goodbye, Sam.
