Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome back to the On Duties podcast, a production of the Ciceronian Society. We are reading through all of Cicero's De officiis with the scholars of the Ciceronian Society. I'm Chris Anadale of Mount St. Mary's University. Joining me today again are Catherine Bradshaw of the Ancient Language Institute and Ethan Alexander Davy of. Of Campbell University. Welcome to you both.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Good to be here.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Great to see you guys again.
We are about three quarters of the way through book one of On Duties, and we finished at the end of chapter 121.
So I think we'll pick up right away here with chapter 122. Ethan, may I ask you to read that and Catherine to offer first comment on it?
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Of course, A further point is that the same duties are not assigned to those of different ages.
Some are for youths and others for older men. We must also, therefore, say something about this difference.
It befits a youth to respect his elders and to choose from them the best and most upright upon whose counsel and authority he might depend. For the inexperience of early life ought to be ordered and guided by. By the good sense of the old. It is especially at this age, moreover, that one must guard against passions and train one's mind and body in toil and endurance so that they might flourish when working hard at military and civil duties.
Even when they wish to relax their minds and surrender themselves to enjoyment. Young men should be wary of lack of restraint and mindful of a sense of shame.
That will be easier if they are willing for their elders to associate with them even in activities of this kind.
As for old men, it seems that their bodily labors.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Sorry, Ethan, let's stop at 122 right there, if you don't mind.
All right, we'll do the young men duties first. Catherine, what do you think?
[00:02:09] Speaker C: Well, this is again, Cicero, being practical. There's duties. And instead of just saying everyone has duties and there are virtues, and we must follow the virtues. No, let us. Let us break down what virtues and which duties are most appropriate for which stages of life.
And there is a distinction.
So the. What's interesting to me is he starts with, of course, young people ought to respect their elders. But then he goes straight into mentorship and says the best thing is for the. The youth to seek out mentors who will help him to grow into a wise and virtuous older man.
And this is something that I think we.
The. The modern world either ignores this completely or sort of of assumes that this is a natural thing and does not say just outright like this is a duty to go and seek it. And of course, the older should foster that.
But there is a sense in which, I think that young people now are not taught that this is something they should go do, and so they can get lost very easily. And I, I, it's wonderful to see young people now who, even though they are not given this advice explicitly, they still do it naturally. So that is something to be admired even in this sort of howling wilderness of counsel.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that it's a, it's appropriate, of course, that Cicero doesn't just give us, Here are the rules, Follow the rules. If you're old, follow the rules. If you're young, follow the rules. If you're a woman, follow the rules. The rules are the rules, and everybody should obey them. He says, well, here's what is, as he says, it befits a youth.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: So it's fitting, it's appropriate, and it is sort of, you know, being most fully what a youth ought to be, to respect his elders and interesting element of choice involved here, to choose from among them the best. So not to choose poor models or to choose no role models, or to model himself on his peers instead of on his elders, but to pick the best, the most upright, the most appropriate for him and for his, for his path forward so he can depend upon them. He then gives the reasons for this, right. Is that inexperience should be ordered by experience. So if you lack wisdom and prudence and good judgment, the example I use often with my classes, if you're a rookie firefighter, it's your first, your first year, your first month in the firehouse. One of the first things you have to do is to figure out which one of the old guys you would like to have take you under his wing. Who should you imitate? Who has good judgment about the kinds of things that firemen have to have good judgment about? Because your judgment is trash right now. You've just started. You're not going to be able to tell whether that building is about to collapse or whether you need to take this kind of equipment or that kind of equipment. And it's not. There's going to be sort of a list of rules that you need to carry with you to consult in the moment. It's, you need to, you know, oh, you follow Joe around, do what Joe does, do whatever Joe tells you, and try to become more like Joe over the next five to 10 years. And that's the kind of mentorship, as you called it, Catherine, that's appropriate and also One needs a mentor from lack of experience.
Also. This is the age at which one must guard most against passions.
These are in fact, the same two factors that Aristotle out at the beginning of the Nicomachean ethics, lack of experience and domination by passion, which present problems for a young person. First, wishing to study ethics and political science to understand the theory of the excellent. Well, you don't have the experience of life that can be corrected by mentorship. And you might at this age be most dominated by your passions that can be corrected by mentorship as well, by ordering yourself to the life of a good model. And also then to train you to endure. This maybe is the Roman element, to train you to endure the rigors of military and civic duty which is coming your way. You're kind of soft right now, but you've got to get hard by sort of training and disciplining yourself mentally and physically.
And then there's the reference to recreation. And maybe I'll leave that for Ethan to comment on because I thought that was also quite interesting and quite telling from Cicero's perspective and advice. Ethan.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Yes, you read my mind, Chris, that I did have a comment about that particular point. So I obviously agree with everything that you've both said. But on the point of recreation, there should be, in Cicero's recommendation, even when you are at leisure, you should find older models to follow and not just figure it out amongst your peers. So the thing that comes to the specific thing that comes to mind is Plato's laws where he talks about the drinking games.
So men learn to drink, but not just among other young men. There are elders there supervising and showing the proper way of doing it. So this is a recommendation that I would say militates against any kind of youth culture. The youth do not have their own culture.
They have to learn from their elders how to conduct themselves, both in their professional capacities and also in their leisure. So if the youth are left to themselves to do the drinking games, they will do keg stands and other such things. But if they learn from their elders how to enjoy recreation, then they will learn how to do it properly.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Almost a little bit of the same, kind of almost the father's plea. Well, it would be really great if the young men were willing to associate with the old men when they were enjoying themselves rather than excluding them. Did either of you get that same feel as well?
[00:08:28] Speaker C: Now that you mention it, it does seem to be there?
Yeah.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Okay, that might be the case. But yeah, I think of this is.
This is the way it's supposed to be. That Cicero is declaring, you know, this is. This is the way we do things in Rome.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: That's right. That's right.
Let's tackle the. The chapter on the duties of old men next. Catherine may ask you to read that one, and I'll do the commentary.
[00:08:55] Speaker C: Certainly.
Duties of old men, 123.
Thank you.
I'm switching between additions, and so it's taking me a minute. As for old men, it seems that their bodily labors ought to be reduced, but the exercise of their minds actually increased. They ought indeed to make an effort to assist as much as they can, their friends and the young and most of all, the Republic, which their council, with their counsel and good sense. There is nothing of which old age should be more wary than yielding itself to idleness and inactivity. Again, luxurious living is dishonorable for any age, but. But particularly disreputable for the old. Indeed, if unrestrained passions are added, also the evil is doubled. Old age not only draws disgrace upon itself, but also causes the young, with their lack of restraint, to become still more shameless.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. This is another one of those passages where I think, am I certain this is being written 2000 years ago? Because it feels like Cicero has sort of peered into contemporary society to say, well, first for old men, their physical strength is going to wane, but their experience and hopefully their character, their mental strength will go up. So, you know, expect less of them physically, more of them mentally, especially advising the Republic, helping to rule, helping to guide young people. These are the appropriate offices for a man as he becomes older. You should expect somebody, therefore, to graduate kind of from youth to military service to civil service, perhaps.
So, each sort of taking advantage of the relative strength at each period of one's life.
And then this warning against idleness and inactivity, a portrait of what might be presented today as a certain kind of luxurious retirement. Right? The life of the cruises and the golf course and idleness and luxury and inactivity. This is the worst thing for the old, or I say, it's the least fitting thing for the elderly. Right. It's not seemly for old people to live lives of luxury, inactivity, and idleness. And if they give vent to their passions as well. It sounds like he's describing a set of problems that we would very much recognize in our own age. The trouble with giving vent to the passions is then you're a terrible example for the youth, and they, already being inclined to be passionate, are going to be still more so, to the detriment of all of society. As well as them, as well as themselves.
Ethan, further comment.
[00:11:35] Speaker B: Precisely. I would just add to that that, yeah, this seems to be an argument against the modern idea of enjoy your retirement.
You don't retire as your physical strength and energy wane. You may have to be less active, but you still need to be performing the same duties, providing advice, contributing to mentoring the youth, and all of the things that you are still capable of doing.
There is no retirement. Those who are elderly would, of course, have times of rest and leisure, but they must continue to perform the duties of which they are capable.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: Yes, and this is something that, when I'm teaching my students and they see these elderly characters in the various things that they're reading, and they go, how old is this man? He's. He's so active. And I said, he's old for them, like, he's. He's what they would consider old. But he. You don't. Retirement's not a thing in the ancient world.
And I think that there is something to be said for Cicero talking about these things are seemly and in accordance with nature. I mean, that's a very stoic way of viewing virtue.
But this is, this is borne out by what, by the fact that so many people, when they stop and do not and go into retirement, they don't flourish in retirement. They get. They have illnesses that just come up and are sudden, and everyone goes, what happened? Well, a lot of it was. They didn't have something that they felt was meaningful that they could keep going for.
And so there is something to be said for not only this being seemly, but also being in accordance with nature, how we were made.
And there is a sense in which we get. We keep coming back to the idea of examples, because the Romans do see examples as like their main way of morally instructing, but not just through story, but also through living example. And so whether the older person pictured here is aware of it or not, he or she is an example to the young. The young do look to them. And so this is something that he or she has to be aware of, is that what I do will affect the youth. The youth will take what I do and magnify it, because the. The young are sort of a megaphone for whatever they see in the older generations.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Well, that's absolutely true. And if I could add just a further comment, it seems to me part of what's happening here with the section on young men and on old men.
Cicero, in a sense, is describing, I think, the elements of what might call a morally healthy society and Culture in which individuals can do their duty, make their choices, sort of find good role models. So the young men need to avoid the sort of debauchery and self indulgence, which is in passion and seeking pleasure, which is the specific sort of near vice of youth.
For the old, it's not that so much, right, that the fires of passion have died down perhaps, but, but. And the physical strength is lower. But it's luxury, right? It's the vice of luxury of sort of saying, well, I put in my years, I've earned it, I'm taking the time off, right? Or that the sort of advertising campaign that says, you know, have the kind of retirement that you deserve, right? And all of that seems like it's a kind of abrogation not only of one's duty to the republic, of political duty, but of one's sort of role in society overall. Like the youth need you, right? Society needs you to be there for the youth. And you need not to give yourself over to idleness, sensual indulgence, sort of reigniting of the passions and sort of eating, you know, fine foods for, you know, out of. Out of proportion to what. What's good for you and for your life. So that's the other thing I get out of this is not just this is the duties of individuals, but this is the kind of society we ought to have where the young respect the old, the old are respectable, and provide that kind of mentors. Did either of you want to comment in that direction or anything else about these sections before we move on?
[00:16:19] Speaker B: I think you've covered it, Chris.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: Okay, great.
Well, let me take the next two chapters, I think, 124 and 125, and I think that'll bring us to the end of this topic in book one.
It would not go beyond my brief to say something also of the duties of magistrates, of private individuals and of citizens and of foreigners.
It is then the particular function of a magistrate to realize that he assumes the role of the city and ought to sustain its standing and its seemliness, to preserve the laws, to administer justice, and to be mindful of the things that have been entrusted to his good faith.
A private person, on the other hand, ought first to live on fair and equal terms with the other citizen reasons, neither behaving submissively and abjectly, nor giving himself airs. And secondly, to want public affairs to be peaceful and honourable, for we are accustomed to think and say that such a man is a good citizen.
It is the duty of a foreigner or resident alien to do nothing except his own business, asking no questions about anyone else, and never to meddle in public affairs which are not his own own.
We have thus pretty well discovered what our duties are when the questions what is seemly and what suits different roles, circumstances or ages.
Nothing, however, is so seemly as preserving constancy in everything that you do and in every plan that you adopt.
Ethan, care to comment?
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Right. So, and this is a theme we've seen before, of course, that Know your place and act accordingly. And so one of the roles of the magistrate, of course, is to not only do his job, but also to be a good example for others in society. And of course, in ancient Rome, as today, there were always scandals, there were some people who didn't do that.
But the point there is that it's essential that people in power are models of good conduct. If they are not, then that calls into question the legitimacy of power, of public power.
And again, anyone who is in a position of authority, anyone who is visible, is going to be a kind of model for others, which others will imitate. So it's essential that public officials be as virtuous, as careful, as correct in their conduct as they can.
And then we turn to the ordinary citizen. The citizen who is perhaps not active in politics, or not active beyond, say, voting in the assembly if he gets selected, should also perform the appropriate role of being a citizen. So don't be too submissive, because we're Romans, we're not slaves.
But also don't be too arrogant, don't put on airs, act according to your appropriate place in society.
And then, of course, the foreigners, Right, So this, I suppose, would be controversial today if, if you are a foreigner, you should stay out of politics. So don't, don't be a some kind of foreign activist who is criticizing the country that you're living in.
You should mind your own business and leave the activities of citizenship to those who are actually citizens.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: Catherine, there is a. There is a sense in which each of these different types of people have particular virtues that are emphasized here.
So the, the magistrates not only have the. The duty of sustaining decorum that is, part of their job is to, to uphold the standards, but to.
I appreciate how the, how the translation words that.
To remember that it has been committed to their good faith.
There is a sense in which the very office itself is an expression of trust and is saying, we consider that you all, you have the good faith, the fidelity, the loyalty, all of those are the same word in Latin, to execute this office well.
And so we have entrusted that to your Good faith in order to promote decorum and seemliness and rule of law.
And then the.
Private citizen is supposed to exercise his civic duty, but then also to look that the republic be, that there be in it the things that are tranquil and honorable. So there is this sense in which peace that not going all over the map in the emotions, is then brought into citizenship. That there should be tranquility amongst the citizenry, and then honor, of course, that things should be done in a respectable way.
And then the peregrini, the resident aliens, the travelers, should not be.
Should not be meddlesome.
This is something that the ancients frown upon.
The word is curiosi.
You can hear we get our word curious from that. That word. They should not be curiosity. They should not be prying and. And searching into things that don't concern them. This is why Aquinas says that curiosity is a. Is a sin. He classifies it as a sin not because being. Having an inquiring mind is a sin, but because it's meddling in things that are not our concern.
And so the. The. The resident alien should not meddle in those things and should not be prying into.
Chris, your point about they should not be the foreign activist, but also that they shouldn't be too invested in things that really don't concern them.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Catherine, is that because the civic life is the res publica and it's not your res. Right. You're a guest here, a visitor here. It's literally not yours, it's ours, right?
[00:23:42] Speaker C: Yes. It is that particularity of place again, that the ancients seem to have a better handle on, I think than many of us moderns, that this is not your thing. Your thing is where you're from.
Pay attention to that thing. That's your business.
But this is our business and we need to pay attention to it. But you don't.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Right?
Well, as far as comment goes, you guys have said a great deal, all of which I agree with.
I would just note I noticed this in reading and perhaps I emphasized it in my intonation.
Part of the duty of the magistrate, his particular duty is to realize that he upholds the role of the city, the Persona, perhaps he wears the mask of the city, right? So when people look at him, they see the city. If you are a judge, if you are a mayor, whatever you are in our context, you represent, right? So you bear that in your person and your office, and you should behave in a seemly way, but that you should sustain its standing and its seemliness. The city has a seemliness the city has a kind of propriety which it must obey. And that should be you, that should be your behavior. You shouldn't behave in a way that is vulgar or that brings disgrace to the city.
Knowing as I do Greek texts more the things that I teach. In Plato's apology, Socrates refers to the fact that Athens will become a laughingstock if he were to abandon his philosophical career under pressure from the jury. And also that he can't escape into exile. Because if the Athenians won't tolerate his philosophizing among them, what foreign people would tolerate a foreigner, a resident alien, philosophizing among them.
There's no way, if the protection, citizenship won't stop me from being killed, there's no way that anybody else will put up with me. It does seem to be a certain kind of very place based, arm's length attitude towards the foreigner, the traveler, the peregrine on the part of the Romans, right, you're here, but remember who you are and where you stand in relation to the rest of us. Seems to be the attitude there are duties of a citizen. The duties of a citizen include kind of living on, we might say, terms of social equality with his fellow citizens, realizing that citizenship is this equal status. So I may be wealthy, but I don't put on airs in my civic life about being wealthy. And also I may be poor, but I'm proud poor. I'm not abject and servile and cringing, as you said. Ethan, we're Romans for God's sake, all of us. So we should bear that in our persons. That is what is seemly for a Roman is to always conduct himself on equal terms with his fellow citizens, rich and poor, noble and base in their origins. And secondly, this always struck me as well, he should want public affairs to be peaceful and honorable. And Cicero might, contemporary might ask what person wouldn't want public affairs to be peaceful and honorable? Well, Caesar, Caesar's rabble rousers. And in our own time, we might say people who might seek partisan advantage by creating more chaos and tumult and dissension within the state. Well, that's not good citizenship, right? You have to want your place, you want your public civic life to run well, to be peaceful and honorable and not want the opposite. To want the opposite is to fail in your duty, even as a private person, as a citizen,
[00:27:26] Speaker B: right? So on that last point, the idea or the slogan of worse is better. That's the view of the activist, the partisan. Whereas the true citizen should want peace and order, right?
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. That's The. Let's call it accelerationism. Right. Let's make civic life worse in the hope that it will provoke some kind of radical change for the better. That doesn't sound like that's fulfilling what's described here as the duties of a good citizen.
Final thought for the episode, if you guys don't mind.
He says at the very end, as he likes to wrap up his sections when he finishes with a train of thought. Well, now we've discussed the different kinds of duties and the questions, what is seemly? What suits different circumstances, roles and ages? But he concludes with kind of his exit line. If there's one thing that is seemly above all its constancy, is that the takeaway we should have here is that you should be constant. Except of course, when you shouldn't, when you should be sort of correcting your errors. What do you think of that as the sort of one word summary of the virtue of seemliness?
[00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah, constancy or consistency, maintaining your doing the duties that you understand you have to do from your ancestors and from nature ought to keep you on the correct path.
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Catherine.
There is also.
Ethan summed up constancy as consistency beautifully.
I think there's also the fact that as he's talked about over and over, not going to the extremes, there is a constancy of the golden mean in the Aristotelian heritage that is a different kind of constancy, but it is similarly wrapped up in seemliness. And so I think that Cicero is kind of playing with both of those meanings here, where it's not just that you are consistent with good character, but it's also that you are temperate and do not go to the extremes of anything.
That would turn into a vice if it went to the extremes.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: That sounds almost like consistency being a term of praise, right? He's a consistent person, meaning not just sort of formally speaking. He does the same stuff. He does consistent stuff. He does the stuff that a consistent. It's almost like it's got a kind of substance to it, doesn't it? In the moral life.
Yeah, that's very good. Thanks to both of you, Ethan and Catherine, for being with me for this episode of the Cicero on Duties podcast. We'll be back again next week to read further into book one. I hope that if you like this podcast, you'll share it with a friend. Subscribe to this episode to this podcast this episode spread the word about what we're doing. We're not stopping until we get all the way through the end of book three. Sometime from now.
Please join us again next week. Thanks for watching today. Goodbye.
