Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Hello, welcome back to the Cicero On Duties podcast where we are reading through all of Cicero's work De officiis with the scholars of the Ciceronian Society. I'm Chris Anadale. Joining me today, my regular co hosts, Ethan Alexander Davy, Ben Peterson, and Catherine Bradshaw. Glad to have you guys with me here today.
We have ended in book one, chapter 131 of On Duties. We are halfway through Cicero's just finished talking about the seemliness and orderliness of the body.
The way we walk, the way we talk, the way we dress and behave. We're about to turn into some discussion of speech and conversation.
Ethan, may I ask you to pick up in the middle of chapter 131 and read both that and all of chapter 132.
And Ben, you'll do first comment
[00:01:06] Speaker A: much more. However, we ought to strive to ensure that the movements of our spirit do not abandon nature. We shall achieve that if we are wary of becoming excited or of falling into dispiritedness, and if we keep our spirits intent upon the preservation of seemliness. The spirit can be moved in two by thought or by impulse.
Thought is for the most part occupied with seeking what is true, while impulse drives one to act. We must therefore take care to exercise our thought on the best possible subjects and to render our impulses obedient to reason.
Speech also has great power, and that in two areas, in oratory and in conversation. Oratory should be employed for speeches in law courts, the public assemblies, or in the Senate, while conversation should be found in social groups, in philosophical discussions, and among gatherings of friends.
And may it attend also dinners.
Guidance about oratory is available, provided by the rhetoricians, but none about conversation, although I do not see why that could not also exist.
But teachers are found wherever there are devoted pupils, and no one is devoted to learning about conversation while everywhere is packed by the crowds around the rhetoricians. However, such advice as there is about words and opinions will be relevant also to conversation.
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Well, this section is very interesting because he begins in the part that we read. He says, okay, you've got to care about your body. And as we discussed in a previous episode, there's nothing that's too minute to care about in terms of your appearance and where you do what activity and all these things. But then here he says, actually, actually much more. We have to attend to the movements of our spirit, right? And so this is, you know, okay, this is where the even more intense action is going to be in terms of achieving seamliness. I also just was struck at the Beginning when he just says, we shall achieve this right, we should strive to ensure that the movements of our spirit do not abandon nature. And we shall achieve that if we are wary of becoming excited or falling into dispiritedness and keep our spirits intent on the preservation of seemliness. So this is an achievable outcome. Right. This is not the Christian idea that our spirits are fallen and bent. Right. And we need grace to come in and transform us.
This is within our grasp. If you think about the right things, talk about the right things, develop the right habits, you can control your spirit in this way or channel your spirit in this way. So that was maybe to kick us off something that I found very interesting.
[00:03:53] Speaker D: Well, and there's a sense in which a lot of the Christian philosophers and ethical thinkers later draw upon this tradition.
So with the addition, Ben, as you said, that it is not possible for us to do this in our own strength, but with the grace of the spirit, with the sanctifying work of the spirit. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Because it is God who works, works in us to will and to do his good pleasure. So there is that element of almost there, but not quite when reading Cicero's On Duties.
The other thing, I love it when Cicero makes these distinctions where he says there are two kinds of motivations for our spirit. One is thought and one is impulse. As our translation says. The Latin is appetitus, appetite.
So this is the word that is for the kind of. Not just the emotions, but also the desires, the part of our will that desires all of those things. So those are the things that drive us to act, that motivate us to act.
But thought should guide the appetitus as well.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll just build on that a little bit, Catherine, because I was thinking, reflecting on last week's episode where we'd said that some of these things are natural. But I think, Ben, you said, but we can work on them, we can achieve them, we can develop them. We have to give them attention. So we might have a sort of hint in our natural endowment that certain activities, certain parts of the body, should be private. But that has to be socialized to do a child on how to realize it. And it could be socialized out of the child if they're educated in a different way.
But it seems to me that's just where Aristotle places the virtues. Of course, they're natural capacities, but one has to recognize them. One has to sort of feed the flame so that it becomes larger and larger to strengthen the natural capacity and one can very easily overwhelm it, smother it, lose it, or sideline it so much that it doesn't affect one's behavior. So that I think Cicero, in addition to talking about the meaning of between, say, softness and harshness, is also thinking like an Aristotelian or with an Aristotelian kind of inheritance and framework in just this way. Observe what nature teaches you. Nature speaks kind of with a soft touch sometimes, and then develop that. Respect it, build it up, unite it to your own sort of more deliberate rationality, and live and develop and grow into a Roman gentleman. That seems to me to be. It's going to be here as well. I'll just mention as well what sounds to be like a father's lament. The young people are surrounding the orators. They want to learn oratory because that seems like the fast route to power and wealth and prestige. Nobody's paying attention to the laws of conversation, which is everywhere and should be correctly disciplined as well.
Ethan, what do you think?
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I agree with everything that you've all said, but I'll focus in on the second part of this passage about that.
Depending on the occasion, there are ways that are appropriate to speak. So there are different forms of speech, and depending on the venue, you should follow the appropriate forms. And this is another lesson in seemliness. And so when I think about my own experience, a lot of students do not understand oratory everything. When they write, they write as if they're having a conversation. They don't know the distinction. And I've also, in my travels, I've met academics who have not mastered the art of conversation.
In a gathering, they simply lecture as if they're being orators and they don't know how to. So it's important to know the distinction and to master both forms, depending on the occasion.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: That's great. That's good advice. I'm reminded also of students who will begin an email to a professor, you know, with some kind of formal request for a deadline extension. It's like, hey, professor, no, that's not how one. It's not how it's done. But apparently nobody socialized you like this, and maybe I'm the one who has to. So I think our next section is 133.
Ben, may I ask you to read that? And Catherine, to comment?
[00:08:33] Speaker C: Certainly.
[00:08:34] Speaker E: It is our voice that gives expression to our speech.
We should therefore have two aims for our voices. They should be clear, and they should be attractive. We must, of course, look to nature for each of these. But the One quality will be improved by practice, and the other by imitating those who speak distinctly and gently. The two Catuli had nothing to make you think they possessed a refined judgment in the matter of language. They were, it is true, men of letters, but so were others.
However, they are thought of as the finest exponents of the Latin tongue. Their pronunciation was pleasant, their enunciation neither over nice nor muffled, so avoiding both offensiveness and lack of clarity. Their delivery without oratory, yet neither feeble nor sonorous. The speech of Lucius Crassus was more expansive and no less humorous. But the reputation of the Catuli for speaking well is just as great.
Caesar, the brother of Catullus the father, so far surpassed everyone else in witticisms and humor that even in speeches of the forensic type, his conversational style defeated the oratory of others.
We must work at all these things if we are in everything, seeking that which is seemly.
[00:09:55] Speaker D: Now we get the oratory discussion.
So Cicero has this.
He's well known for being an advocate of a particular style of oratory that is much more natural, shall we say, than some other older contemporaries of his who were, for lack of a better word, bombastic. They were over the top.
It's often called kind of an.
An Asiatic style of oratory where it's very ornate.
Now, sometimes this debate can get blown out of proportion, but there was a difference in style in oratory. And so Cicero is taking his position here and saying, well, but it should be smooth.
The word that he says when he says there are two things.
It must be clear and attractive, or smooth. It should be easy to listen to. It should be something that is both by practice and by imitation of those who speak distinctly and gently.
And Cicero practiced what he preached here.
Plutarch talks about how much he practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced, because we have to remember that all of these orations, like these long orations that we have of Cicero's, except for one where he apologizes to his audience for using notes, they were all delivered from memory.
And so he would have to know all of this and deliver it from memory with little things that would make it sound not canned, would make it sound natural. And so there is this way of saying, okay, you must practice, but you must also. I think we keep coming back to this theme of cultivation that you talked about, Ben. You have to imitate those that you say, I want to be like that. And so you're taking the example and saying, I'm going to cultivate this whether I have it naturally or not, as we talked about in a previous episode.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I certainly agree with all of that. I'm glad to hear something about the sort of context for the oratory in which he's commenting on which he's commenting. What struck me about this chapter especially was the subtlety of Cicero's vocabulary and just commenting in a fairly casual way on the oratorical styles of different people. Oh, well, this fellow had what he's neither over nice nor muffled with clarity, but neither feeble nor sonorous. Now, part of that maybe is the English vocabulary is unusual by comparison to ordinary speech. But it strikes me that this is a man who's paid attention to speech and the rules of speech and what makes speech effective, attractive, beautiful. And he's got something like a very highly refined palate.
You can say, oh, that's good, but a little bit on the sonorous side. You need to work on that. Go listen to more or just observe more of the speeches of so and so who gets it just right.
So to us who, even those of us who teach and work with our voices may not pay that much attention to the specifics and all the multi dimensions where you have to get it just right in order to speak well for your particular voice, maybe also for the particular audience in the space that you're in. The most we might get to that is talking to people about microphone discipline, for example, if they learn to speak well with amplification. But I'm impressed by the minuteness of his observations about the quality and lack of quality in speech, if you want to get it exactly right.
Ethan.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah, so I'll add to two things. First, I'll add to what I said before about how students struggle with this kind of thing, right? Just being able to speak distinctly and gently at the right pace. Don't go too fast, don't make your voice sound all contorted like, what do they call it, vocal fry? That some of these young people, they speak in this very odd way in which they don't appropriately enunciate. And these are things one has to learn in order to make oneself understandable and also at least somewhat pleasant to listen to. So that you want to listen to this person. And all of these things are very important.
The other comment that occurred to me, Thomas Carlyle, who's been featured in our other program, he has in his book the Latter Day Pamphlets, he has this very long diatribe about how the members of parliament in 19th century England had mastered oratory. They were oratorical geniuses, but they never said anything of Substance. They never said anything that mattered. They never addressed what was important, never did anything. But when I think about our legislature today, well, they have neither the substance nor the oratory. They've lost all of it. So it'll be a long road to recovery, both of oratory among our legislators and also their ability to attend to substance.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Okay, can I add a couple.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: Couple thoughts? Go ahead.
[00:15:31] Speaker E: Absolutely.
[00:15:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Just, I mean, what a couple of us have mentioned so far is this really fascinating, the stark contrast of how communication is thought about. And I do think when we think about public speaking and teaching it, it seems to me maybe the main thing we think about teaching students is like getting students comfortable, just even doing it, just even being willing to stand in front of a group and speak. And here it's like you said, all the attention to detail about. And again, this connection with a lot of things we wouldn't normally connect with ethics or with duties, as this is part of your duty as a person who's pursuing seemliness. Pay attention to how you speak.
That's just one very interesting, the whole speech ethics dimension of this. The other is you get the hint. I mean, rhetoric is always an interesting
[00:16:19] Speaker E: subject because you get the hint at
[00:16:21] Speaker C: the end of this section where he says Caesar with his humor and witticism, was able to defeat the other orators. So there's a sense in which you're going into combat when you're engaging in oratory. Right. And so it's also partly about how do you win this rhetorical oratorical battle?
And again, that can be done for good purposes or bad purposes. But I mean, it's just an interesting dimension of it as well.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. Thank you, Ben.
Let's move on to section 134. And if I haven't lost track in my notes, I think, Catherine, you're the reader for this and I'm the first commenter.
[00:16:59] Speaker D: All right.
Conversation in which the Socratics particularly excel ought therefore to be gentle and without a trace of intransigence. It should also be witty.
Nor should any one speaker exclude all others, as if he were taking over occupancy of his own estate. He should think it fair in shared conversation, just as in other things, for everyone to have a turn. Above all, let him have regard for the subject of discussion. If it is serious, he should treat it with gravity, if light hearted, with wit, he should take care, above all that his speech does not reveal that there is some fault in his behavior. In general, that happens particularly when someone speaks quite deliberately about people who are Absent in an abusive or insulting manner in order to disparage them, whether he does so in praise, to praise, to raise a laugh, or with severity.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Okay, thank you. So a short chapter here about rules for conversation, which he's just previously said. Nobody seems to be writing any treatises about how to do conversation. Conversation. Well, although I think maybe I could just say some things about speech in general.
I do like his advice here. The kind of advice you would give to somebody if you're trying to train them in basic social graces of, say, table talk, conversation. That's something I know that some people do get basic training in. In some contexts, we ought to be gentle, but not intransigent. We should be witty when we can. And actually, you could write a whole treatise on wit, just what it means to be witty, the kinds of humor one can do, the kinds of humor one should not att.
And how that depends upon audience context, current events as well.
And he should take a fair turn in shared conversation. He should be willing to take a turn, speak just as long as is appropriate, as I'm trying to do here, and then stop, maybe leave something for other people to say if there's a limited amount of things to comment upon. I think in that spirit, I'm going to forbear comment on the latter half of this chapter and leave that to the rest of you. Ethan, why don't you go next?
[00:19:04] Speaker A: Well, I think you've already covered it, but I suppose I would add to this.
This is something that I'm sure all of us have encountered, the sort of person who insists on dominating the conversation or who just can't stand silence and always fills any silence so that no one can get a word in edgewise. And I think we've all encountered that kind of person. And that is unseemly behavior.
A conversation means more than one person is speaking. And that's something that a lot of people need to learn.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Ben?
[00:19:46] Speaker C: Oh, sorry.
Yeah, I don't have a lot to add other than it is one of those passages in Cicero that just sort of reads like kind of common sense, I guess, or that, you know, just kind of go, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Right. I wouldn't like to be in a conversation where one person was dominating or wasn't letting anybody else talk.
It's interesting. He doesn't. I mean, maybe he will.
He doesn't specifically talk about. It's important to listen really well, although I don't think he would disagree with that. But it's just like that sometimes when you hear people. What is a good conversator, you know, a conversationalist, is you got to listen. Well, but I mean, I think that's sort of implied.
And then the key point about, hey, don't talk disparagingly about people who aren't there in the circle. Right. They have no opportunity to defend themselves.
He's. A couple times throughout, throughout the book, he's hinted at things or mentioned things that people are going to be tempted. We are often tempted to do so. For example, we're often tempted to make sure to do good turns for people from whom we expect something in the future rather than to pay back people who have done us a good turn in the past. Right. And so we need to make sure to make sure we're watching out for that. It's a similar thing here, I think, in conversation.
[00:21:05] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: And there's also the common sense element of that is strong here. There's also the fact that not only does he say, not to disparage people who aren't there, but also that, again, how one talks should fit the topic of conversation. And I think this is.
This is something that there could be more said about in any era, but I think particularly now, where it's difficult to find a serious conversation, many times about a serious topic, you have all of these very serious topics treated with a levity that is rather sometimes helpful. Sometimes, again, the comedian can say things that the serious man cannot.
It has its place, but there is a place for it. And when it leaks out of its place, it tends to trivialize, or.
What is the word I'm looking for? To lower the threshold of seriousness for everything.
And so the Cicero is trying to prevent such things by saying, if you have a serious topic, you should treat it seriously, but you should not be a bore. Also, if it is a light topic, please use wit. Use the spice, the salt of wit, to season that conversation. So Cicero, again, is going for that middle. That Aristotelian mean of do not be a serious, sober person all the time, but also don't be a jokester who can never, never be serious.
And so using that judiciously.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah, if I could add one more thing, I think I've heard. I'm thinking of the phenomenon of people treating serious topics with sort of inappropriate level of irony. I think that was characteristic of what might have been called millennial humor, millennial irony or marvel humor, about a decade ago, maybe a decade and a half ago, I think it had its peak. And thankfully we've come down off of it, but seem Like a rather cheap and socially inappropriate use of irony. One can ironize over things like death or something that demands a certain level of seriousness. But at some point, one has to put one's earnest clothes back on and treat serious topics seriously.
I think we're now at chapter 135. I think it's my turn to read.
It's quite short, so I'll do that with Ethan as the commenter.
Conversations are, for the most part, about domestic business or public affairs, or else the study and teaching of the arts. We should then, even if the discussion begins to drift to other matters, make an effort to call it back to the subject. But we should do so according to the company, for we do not at all times enjoy the same subjects in the same way.
We must also be aware of the extent to which conversation is being enjoyed.
And just as there was a reason for beginning it, so set a limit. So let a limit be set for its conclusion.
I think that's a short chapter. Why don't we just do a really quick round of commentary on that and move on to the next one? Ethan?
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Well, this seems like another sort of common sense insight here, right, that one should not drift too far from the subject of the discussion, but one should also take into account the extent to which the company is enjoying the conversation. So this again, the social graces. Are you the hospitable sort of person who can both stay on business but also be accommodating to your interlocutors?
[00:25:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I thought Catherine's great point about, hey, speak in a way that's appropriate to the subject, don't make light of a serious subject, or vice versa.
But also, yeah, pay attention to who you're with.
Maybe among certain friends, you guys joke about some things that other people wouldn't joke about, or you enjoy talking about business or golf, whereas other people wouldn't.
I do think there's both of those. They keep all of that in mind and intention.
[00:25:38] Speaker D: Yes. And I think this brings to your point, Ben, from earlier, where you were saying, does Cicero talk about listening? I think this is where he is basically talking about listening without talking about listening, because he's saying, listen to the conversation, trace the flow of the conversation, but also listen in a metaphorical sense to the other people's body language. And are they seeming to. Are you reading the room correctly?
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think that's a great way to put it. Also, this falls under the idea of treating other people with respect, recognizing the kind of appearance you're presenting. And if you're boring the pants off of people. You've just got to learn how to cut it short. And there's a skill to that. That's a conversational skill. Let's bring this awkward conversation quickly to a reasonable close that doesn't make it even more awkward. That seems like that's just the kind of skill he's talking about here.
Ethan, would you please read chapter 136
[00:26:39] Speaker A: again? Just as in the whole of our lives, we are very rightly advised to avoid agitation, that is excessive movements of the spirit that do not obey reason.
Similarly, our conversation should be free from movements of this type so that anger is not aroused and no greediness reveals itself, nor slovenliness, nor idleness, nor any other such thing. We must take particular care to be seen to respect and to have affection for those with whom we share conversations. A further point. Sometimes it happens that it is necessary to reprove someone.
In that case, we may perhaps need to use a more rhetorical tone of voice or sharper and serious language, and even to behave so that we seem to be acting in anger. However, we should have recourse to this sort of rebuke in the way that we do to surgery and cautery. Rarely and unwillingly, never, unless it is necessary. If no other medicine can be found, however, anger itself should be far from us. For nothing can be done rightly or thoughtfully when done in anger.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: That's just a striking last claim there. Anger is not how you're going to achieve, even if it's correct results you're looking for. In other words, even if you are rightly provoked, your anger is not going to help you respond well, even though you may need to sound a little bit angry.
Yeah, this is a interesting point that he says. Our conversation should not reveal, you know, grieving, greediness, slovenliness, all these defects of character. Right. He said that in another earlier chapter that I think we read of. So our oratory and our conversation shouldn't reveal these character flaws. And I don't think he's meaning there like we should be trying to cover up and not.
Not be honest about who we really are. I think he's saying our conversation is related to our spirit, and we're trying to control our spirit with reason or guide it with reason and control our appetites and all this. And so this is all connected to each other.
So I think those were some of the interesting things in this section.
[00:28:57] Speaker D: Yeah, Ben, as you were talking, all I could think of was in Mark, when Christ says, out of the abundance, abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
So I think this is a principle that Cicero would understand, recognize, and go, okay, yes, yes, that makes sense to me.
So, yes.
The other thing I think is interesting with this section is he allows for kind of a rhetorical art to conversation as well, because he says sometimes we must seem angry without being angry.
So it's as if I have, you know, someone has judged that this person will not respond to a reproof unless I seem to be angry at him. Therefore, I shall seem to be angry at him, even though I shall make sure that I am not, because that would, as you pointed out, undercut what I'm trying to do here.
So there is a level of.
At which I think Cicero might never cease to be an orator because you have. Even conversation must be used artfully in order to achieve the good result that one wishes for.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I'll just add here, as a father of four kids, that this reminds me again of a kind of a parenting manual. Like I might say to my wife, we've had some trouble with this issue here. I think I'm going to have to raise my voice next time it comes up. I'm going to have to pretend to be angry at the boy so that he jumps to it and realizes the change he has to make.
So that. And also certain experiences at work which I won't characterize anymore. But there might be some cases where I say I need to go into this meeting with a certain kind of presentation so that the people with whom I'm negotiating or speaking will adopt a certain kind of attitude. In other words, I'm signaling to them. I think this happens in other areas as well, like international diplomacy, where the president or the prime minister might make some sort of extreme statement. And that's not because he thinks it's true. It's because he's signaling to people the attitude they ought to take in responding and responding to him. A lot of this also connected with things we've seen before about seemliness. It's ultimately about paying attention to the social reality around you. Right.
Attending to, paying attention to and anticipating the way that you will be received, and then sort of making that part of your sort of moral sphere of consideration and of action.
And the last thing I'll add, inspired by something that you said, Ben, I was wondering if he does Talk in Section 134about do not speak in a way that reveals a fault in your behavior here in 136, he seems to talk about don't speak in a way that reveals a fault in your character. And my.
By linking up this with the previous week's episode about the body. These are the shameful parts of the spirit. Don't show people your rudeness. They don't want to see that. Don't show them your greediness or your slovenliness. Whatever character defect you have.
That's also like those parts of the body which might be there but which should be hidden.
So you keep those under wraps and be disciplined and and constant seemly in your speech so that you're not tipping sort of opening that part of your robe and people catch a glimpse of what an ugly person you are underneath. So if that is the case, Ethan.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: Well, I think you've all covered it, but I suppose I would only add that I think it's appropriate that he says that a rebuke is a form of surgery. It's like medicine. Its purpose is to correct. So it's a surgical tool. It's not a sledgehammer. You're not too beat someone down. But to issue the kind of comment that is likely to correct them.
And that's as far as it goes.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: That's very good. Our last chapter today for this episode will be 137. May I ask you to read that, Ben and Catherine to comment?
[00:33:16] Speaker E: One ought for the most part to resort only to mild criticism, though combined with a certain seriousness, so as to
[00:33:24] Speaker C: show severity while avoiding abusiveness.
[00:33:28] Speaker E: We must furthermore make it clear that any sharpness there may be in the reproof has been adopted for the sake of the person who is being reproved. It is right, moreover, even in disputes that arise with our greatest enemies, and even if we hear unworthy things said against us, still to maintain our seriousness and to dispel our anger. For things that are done with some
[00:33:50] Speaker C: degree of agitation cannot be done with
[00:33:52] Speaker E: constancy nor be approved by those who are present. It is also unattractive to commend yourself, particularly if you do so untruthfully, or to imitate the boastful soldier, arousing the ridicule of your listeners.
[00:34:09] Speaker D: And we go back to the actors.
So that last.
I'm going to skip down to the very last sentence in that section because Cicero says it's improper, it's unseemly to praise oneself and to become the boastful soldier. So the Latin term for this is the milaes gloriosus, which is a stock character in Roman comedy, the boastful soldier, the guy who comes home from war and is telling everyone about all of the things he did in war, many of which are completely imaginary for the boastful soldier. And there is actually a play of Plautus called the Miles Gloriosus where a particularly unpleasant braggart soldier is fooled and gulled and made to look as foolish as he actually is.
But Cicero would have known that Marcus and anyone else reading this would be very familiar with this stock character and say, here it's like any of our, you know, take any very, very well known sitcom and say here, do not be like, fill in the blank with whatever character from very well known sitcom, because that will make you ridiculous to your audience. You are not an actor in a comedy. You are a person who is trying to be taken seriously, at least some of the time. So act like it.
[00:35:45] Speaker B: That's great. I'll just add to it the observation that even in disputes with our greatest enemies, and even when we hear unworthy things, I've been insulted, how should I react? Not with anger, that's not appropriate, but with a certain kind of seriousness, the way that a man who has genuine nobility acts when he's been insulted. To get angry is to lower yourself. And as he says, another great sort of put on a T shirt or a bumper sticker moment.
Nothing done with agitation can be done with constancy. So if you are upset, if you are agitated, if you are boiling inside, you need to calm down. Not because you'll make a mistake, but because you're not in a state such that you can behave with constancy, which is the essence of seemliness. So you need to get control of yourself. We might say there's another sort of mental skill, getting control of yourself quickly when you've been insulted or offended or mistreated. In order to be able to speak with constancy, there's a character trait that one should cultivate and develop.
Ethan.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: Right. And on that same point, that was the part that stuck out to me as well, about even when you have been insulted by your greatest enemy. And a big part of it is that if you allow yourself to become angry, you likely will make a mistake and your response will not be the best response that it could be if you give in to impulse, if you give in to anger. So maintaining control of yourself at all times is the best way to respond appropriately, even to an insult from your greatest enemy.
[00:37:35] Speaker C: Yeah, the part at the end there about the boastful soldier. Don't be the boastful soldier. Don't be the person who's.
It's unattractive. Right. Again, it's Back to this. We're talking about social graces. We're talking about how to interact with others in conversation and try to engage with others.
I mean, I have to say immediately what came to mind is the passage we read, read earlier in the book, where he's talking about being the savior of the republic and the great thing. But I think even in that passage, he might draw a distinction there and say, look, I was trying to make an argument about that civilian action, civil action, is just as important as military action, maybe more. And I was just giving a slew of examples. Yes, I'm one of them. But that's not the same as being a person who's constantly talking yourself up, up and talking about all your great achievements, especially if you're kind of padding them, you know, with. With embellishment and. Or made up things like the boastful soldier.
But I did think that was kind of an interesting going. Okay. I mean, and also, I mean, it's a father son kind of communication too, where there's passing on the family tradition. That might explain also Cicero's willingness to talk himself up in that, although I understand he was comfortable doing that in other settings as well. But
[00:38:57] Speaker B: I think I might just add at the very end here, the rule against praising yourself. But a lot of this, people might jump right into this part of the book and think he's just talking about Roman customs, about what is acceptable at his place and time among his social class, maybe even his friends, maybe even just he himself. Where does this all have its roots? In nature. And so we might, from the perspective of our own readership and people encountering this book today, want to do a little bit more to trace this back to what, again, is the connection to nature and what nature teaches us when we get to don't brag about yourself in conversation because it makes you ridiculous, not just at this place in time, but it's just sort of general good advice for everyone to follow.
Any thoughts or reactions to that as a sort of final comment?
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Well, I think that if we're relating this to nature, nature is the source, for Cicero, the source of truth. And so one ought to be truthful. That's one of the virtues. And to be braggadocious is not being truthful, especially if you're making up achievements that are not real.
And also, again, it's not being a braggart. These are part of the. The social graces. If you want other people to respect you, then bragging all the time is off. Putting bragging is something that disrupts social relations.
So this kind of behavior is certainly beyond the mean.
We're being overconfident about ourselves.
And so I think there are many arguments from nature you could make against this kind of behavior.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Very good. Anything else?
[00:40:51] Speaker D: Well, I think there's an element of common sense here that again brings back to nature. Because I mean, what is common sense except for the nature teaching us?
So the response that one has to someone else doing the same behavior is indicative.
So if I do not enjoy, if I find a boastful soldier type ridiculous and do not think that he's worthy of respect, then it indicates that probably I should not behave in such a way as well because that will also be ridiculous and not worthy of respect. So there is a sense in which the apostle Paul says some things like does not nature itself teach you about certain things? And this is sort of the same argument of just look at your own reactions and figure out why that is. That is probably because nature is telling you something.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Very good. Thank you so much. I appreciate that I've gone a little bit long on this episode. Past 30 minutes is typical for us, but I think it's been a great conversation. We've gone all the way through the end of section chapter 137 in book one. Book one is only 161 chapters long, so we're getting closer and closer to the end.
So I hope you'll join us next week when we'll break into the next section of this book where Cicero will talk about seemliness and appropriateness in the matter of houses and dwelling places. So that's something to look forward to. Thank you for being with us for the Cicero on Duties podcast with some scholars of the Ciceronean Society. We'll see you next week.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Week.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Thanks for watching.
