Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Hello. Welcome back to the Cicero on Duties podcast. This is a production of the Ciceronian Society.
I'm your co host, Chris Anadale of Mount St. Mary's University. I'm joined today by my regular co hosts, Catherine Bradshaw of the Ancient Language Institute, Ben Peterson of Abilene Christian University, and Coyle Neal of College of the Ozarks. We have have come to the beginning of book three, the kind of payoff book where Cicero is going to conduct his comparison of the honorable with the beneficial question of virtue and utility. How do they meet up? Do they come into conflict? How does one resolve those conflicts? So we'll get into that with this episode. I think we'll start with episode one and I'll take the first duty reading this time for Catherine, you lead off comment and then we'll go around the circle to Ben and Coyle.
Publius Scipio, the one first surnamed Africanus, was accustomed to say that he was never less at leisure than he was at leisure, nor less alone than when he was alone.
That, at any rate, Marcus, my son, is what Cato, who was his approximate contemporary, wrote of him.
The words are magnificent and worthy of a great and wise man. They testify that even in his leisure hours he reflected upon business, and that when he was by himself, he used to talk with himself, so that he was never unoccupied and sometimes did not even need another's conversation.
Thus the two things that induce idleness in others used to make him more lively, that is to say, leisure and solitude. I wish it were possible for me truly to say the same thing. However, though I may not be able to attain his intellectual excellence in imitating him, I can certainly come very close in my willingness.
For I pursue leisure because I am barred from public life and from legal business by the force of accursed arms. And for the same reason I have left the city, wandering around the countryside. Now I am frequently alone.
[00:02:22] Speaker C: Ah.
[00:02:24] Speaker D: Each book seems to open with a more personal Cicero and this, this book is no exception.
Here we have again the, the, the. The emphasis on exempla, the emphasis on examples, those, those lives of great men and saying, oh, I should be like this, or you should be like this, which is of course the way that the Romans inculcate morals. But here we go again.
Scipio Africanus is, Is used his leisure well and used his solitude well, and chose them in order to have that rest. And of course, otium, which is what is translated leisure, here otium is very, A very important concept for the Romans. This is what the Gentleman will have this is what separates him from the non elite is he has otium, he has the time to think and the time to use his leisure time for the intellectual and philosophical pursuits.
Now of course not every elite does that, but he has the time and the ability to. Whereas the one who's working for his own support is not able to.
And so this is very important concept for the Roman philosophical tradition, for the Greek philosophical tradition. Aristotle is very famous for this as well.
But it's the use of it that Cicero is kind of pointing to that is what is so admirable about Scipio.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: I'm reminded of a passage in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book Life Together where he says that one who cannot be in alone should not be in community and one who cannot be in community should not be alone. Right? This kind of like that playing with, hey, being alone is not actually being separate from community, right? It is, it is sort of, you know, having a. Some times of peace and solitude and deepening of personality but at the same time you're not, it's not, you know, you know, this, this idea of like, it's not just like I'm going to have my me time now, you know, that's mine only. It, it is still part of being in a community.
Not exactly what's going on here, but maybe something like what's going on here where this great man used his leisure time in a way that was useful, you know, and he is enjoying solitude and, and yet it's with purpose.
Also kind of an interesting, you know, note of humility here from Cicero, which is not, I would say, his characteristic virtue. But you know, he said, man, I w as good as Scipio at this. Right.
So that was kind of another interesting point of this Last, last thing I'll mention is just this interesting idea of if you develop your sort of mind enough you can actually have, you don't need to have conversation an actual other person there. You can have a running discussion with yourself. Right. It's kind of a self conversation idea. So a few interesting things going on in this passage.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think Scipio the introvert is kind of the, you know, he doesn't actually have to be around other people to be, to be recharged and energized.
I just drove back from a conference out in D.C. and on the way I listened to, I think the title of the book was Carthage Must be Destroyed. So it's a history of Carthage that of course ends with the Romans. And Scipio Africanus is a major player And I think it's interesting. And Cicero in the. Not to anticipate too much, but in the next passage is going to draw a more explicit comparison. But you have in this paragraph, he begins with a Roman who was obviously noble, sort of historically loved, had greatly served the state, and was deeply wronged by the state as his life went on. And then Cicero, of course, ends talking about himself.
The subtle parallel will become much less subtle in just a second, but it's definitely there.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: I noted here, just in addition to all the things you guys have said, which I agree with, that this was what sets Scipio apart, and perhaps what sets Cicero apart, if he can successfully imitate him, is that the two things that induce idleness in most people would make him more lively. Leisure and solitude. He was alone, and he had time on his hands, but instead of the sort of downward path of just vegging out, sitting around doing nothing, or doing nothing useful, he sort of turned all those things to the benefit of the Republic, to the benefit of the human race. And so he's never less alone than when he's alone, and et cetera, et cetera. So he is showing the way, the way of virtue, the way of the excellent man, is to resist that kind of downward entropic pull of, well, I have some time on my hands. I may as well just take a nap. Well, Scipio is the great example of someone who knows exactly what to do and then should be praised and imitated, even by one who, as Cicero humbly says, maybe with some fake humility, I should only hope that I could be as willing to do this as he is, even if I'm not as disciplined and virtuous as he is.
For the next section, Catherine, may I ask you to read chapters two and three and Ben to lead off?
[00:08:05] Speaker C: Comment?
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:08:10] Speaker D: My leisure, however, cannot be compared with that of Africanus, nor my solitude with his. For he asked, for he used to take leisure for himself occasionally as a rest from his splendid services to the Republic. And from time to time he took himself into solitude, away from human crowds and gatherings, as if into a haven. But my leisure was determined by scarcity of business, not by my eagerness to rest. For when the Senate had been suppressed has been suppressed and the law courts destroyed, what is there worthy of me that I can do in the Senate House or in the Forum?
Thus I, who once lived surrounded by crowds and under the gaze of the citizens, now hide myself as much as possible fleeing the sight of wicked men with whom every place overflows. I am often alone however, we hear from learned men that we should not only choose the least among evils, but also extract from those very things whatever good may be in them. Therefore, I make use of my leisure, though it is not the leisure that a man deserves who has once secured repose for the city. And I do not allow my solitude to grow idle, although necessity rather than willingness brought it upon me.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: So if I.
If I recall, I mean, Cicero, you know, he's at. At a villa, kind of forced into exile after he has, you know, been positive toward the assassination of Caesar and spoken against Anthony and all these things, right? And so he's kind of, you know, not by choice, as he puts it, but out of necessity, forced into. Into leisure. It's kind of an interesting thing to think about the idea of leisure, whereas it's, I don't know, there's almost a contradiction in terms, right. It's not really very, very restful and, you know, it's sort of.
Hey, but. But I do think he's kind of painting this picture of, you know, for me, it's not quite like Scipio. Like, I want to be out there in the fray, speaking in, you know, the Senate. And that's as he's been telling Marcus the whole time, to be involved in. Right. Hey, the person who can, you know, get involved in politics and be of public service. That's the most noble thing, right? And so he maybe is. He's saying here, yes, you can still turn your leisure to good use, but I would rather be out there in the public realm, you know, getting, doing. Doing things for my country.
[00:10:37] Speaker C: If, if the book hasn't been written yet, I'd be surprised. But it is stunning how many of these great philosophers spend a ton of time in exile. So I was thinking through.
So Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, of course, Hobbes, Locke, Machiavelli. I mean, we could just go down the list of all of these people who are sort of given enforced leisure and then use it to write the great works of philosophy.
The only one I couldn't think of. I don't know enough about Aquinas personal life, so I don't know if he's there or not. And Augustine has kind of a voluntary exile, so I don't know if that counts, like when he, you know, goes off in the. In the wilderness. But I do wonder if the, the compulsory nature of that is. Is essential to what we're getting here. Like, if, if Cicero had been in the law courts, we wouldn't have this document. So what. Where does. Maybe it's a good thing that we kick the philosophers out of town once in a while.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah, this is, this is, you know, Cicero continuing the thought from chapter one.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: You know, it's unlike Scipio, my solitude is enforced. There's a little bit of poor me, although I think C mostly avoids seeming to be self pitying, just that I would be much better deployed in the service to the Republic in that way, but wicked men from whom I am hiding so that the law courts have been destroyed. It's a bit of exaggeration perhaps here, but that's to be expected for the rhetoric at the beginning of this piece. The context here is that I'm making the best out of a bad lot, and that's of course, what a good man does.
[00:12:14] Speaker C: So
[00:12:16] Speaker B: I'm going to not allow my solitude to grow idle, though necessity has brought it upon me. So I wouldn't compare myself to Scipio, because I am sort of with this enforced necessity. I'd love to follow up that idea of philosophers in exile. It sounds like a great book. I hope it's been written already so I can look into it. Catherine?
[00:12:40] Speaker D: Yes, I think the forced leisure idea, it's so contrary to the Roman ideas of otium, of leisure.
And I think that's partially why Cicero makes such a big deal of it, because leisure is when he describes what Scipio is having, where he retreats as if into a haven away from the hustle and bustle. That's what otium is for the Romans.
And this is what he talks about in an oration of his called the pro archia poeta, where he's arguing about the citizenship of a poet. But then it turns into this defense of the liberal arts and literature.
And he says, this is how I withdraw, because this is earlier in his career, so he's still active. This is how I withdraw to rest and recreate and may improve my mind is to go read in my otium.
But now he has enforced otium.
And I think the, the only, the, like, the, the modern equivalent of enforced otium is whatever period of time we were during lockdown, not allowed to go outside, where we had a forced break.
And there was that same kind of question of, okay, well we have this extra time, or if we've been snowed in or any where, it's like, I can't go outside.
What am I going to do with this time? And so you do see, like post lockdown, you know, the difference between those who used whatever time it was for learning, for improving their careers, for, you know, getting work Done. And those who just said, well, I'll play video games or whatever it is. And so that extraction of not just choosing the lesser of two evils, but extracting what good can be got out of even the worst of circumstances. Circumstances is something I think we have seen more recently than might appear. But then also, this is something that Cicero is dealing with and that philosophers before him have dealt with.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: Very good. Thank you.
Ben, I think you're up next to read. Would you read just chapter four? And Coyle comment.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Africanus, however, in my judgment, earned the greater praise. For there exist, entrusted to writing by him, no memorials of his talent, no achievement of his leisure, no product of his solitude. Consequently, we should understand that it was because his mind was active in investigating the objects of his reflection, that he was never either at leisure or alone. But I do not have enough strength to withdraw myself from loneliness by silent reflection. I have directed all my devotion and concerns towards this type of literary work. As a result, I've written more in the short time since the overthrow of the Republic than in the many years while it stood.
[00:15:44] Speaker C: So I. I don't know if this is supposed to be a backhanded compliment or not. You know, Cicero seems to be saying, you know, Scipio is just thinking so hard he can't be bothered to write anything down. And I.
I don't know that Cicero would intentionally go after the guy who is the hero of his version of the Republic.
That would be surprising. But this paragraph by itself does kind of sound like a shot at Scipio. You know, you had all this time, why didn't you write something so I'll be interested?
That's kind of my take on it, but, man, I don't like that take.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: My thought was that this is not so much to derogate Scipio, but as to sort of find a way of indirectly paying himself a compliment. He's going to mention that I, in my humble inferiority to the great Scipio, who was so good at this that he didn't leave anything behind. I have written tons and tons of things. So this is a way of ironically seeming not boastful while also calling attention to the fact that I've been using my exile from politics, my forced exile, to produce a huge amount of literary things. And this is. We might excuse Cicero a little bit for this. He doesn't know how his life is going to end the following year, and he certainly doesn't know that his works are going to be a huge portion of what survives the next thousand years of European history.
So the influence that he has is enormous. The works that he writes, the ones that have survived.
Did I read somewhere, Catherine, you perhaps know this, that the works of Cicero occupy some enormous percentage of the total number of works, the total amount of ancient literature that has survived from Rome. I've forgotten what the percentage is, but I'd heard that it was quite high. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
[00:17:38] Speaker D: I don't remember the percentage. Unfortunately, he has an outsized influence on later eras, though. I mean, the Renaissance is largely Ciceronian in its focus, and even the medievals are very influenced by Cicero. In fact, this particular treatise is one of the very influential things.
But I don't know the percentage. I'm sorry.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: No, that's fine. I'll look it up sometime. But those are my comments. I think that it's not quite so much to insult Scipio as to pay himself a compliment without seeming to. And everybody knows what he's doing. It's sort of stylish. This is the way that you pull it off to mention, oh, by the way, did I mention that I've written 12 books since I was driven out of Rome? Catherine, what do you think?
[00:18:29] Speaker D: Yes, I think this is definitely what the young people now call a humble brag.
So, yes, but I think that we have to also remember that I agree that this is not an insult per se, even though it kind of sounds like it if we don't take it in context, because one. One has to remember that there is a large philosophical tradition that's not really pro writing in the ancient world.
Plato is most famous for writing down something Socrates said about not about writing things down being a bad idea.
So there is that tradition in the ancient world, and there is a sense in which, okay, it's kind of the ancient equivalent of those who can do. Those who can't teach, those who can do philosophy, do philosophy, and they influence the people around them, and then they create living books that then get passed down properly and you can explain things.
Those who can't do such a thing, they write things which can be misunderstood very easily.
But yes, this is definitely Cicero saying, well, look at how productively I have used my leisure time as well.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Catherine, could that be something to do with the fact that Cicero's book here, which is plainly intended for a general audience, is also written as a kind of intimate letter of advice to his son, of which he constantly reminds us, my dear Cicero, my young Marcus. You think that's part of the same phenomenon?
[00:20:08] Speaker D: It's definitely that feeling. Cicero has published so many of his kind of private things, it's not really private.
So a lot of his stuff is addressed to somebody. Like his letters to Atticus are all. They're all letters, but they're cleaned up for publication.
So this is a thing that the ancients do. But then also it's something that Cicero seems to prefer when he's not polishing his orations for publication as well.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Thanks, Ben.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: I just want to respond to a couple things actually from the previous that, you know, Catherine was talking about, you know, the COVID era and how, how people responded. That was the era I was writing my dissertation during that time. And so I had been going, you know, very slowly on it, and it did provide a good leisure, you know, leisure time where I kind of had. Didn't have much else of an opportunity. I still at first found other ways to distract myself from the dissertation, you know, and then when I got a, you know, a letter from my, my advisors and everything, that's when I. Okay, I can use this time well. So I have had personal experience of that.
Not quite as, you know, voluminous, obviously, as Cicero here, but.
And then coil, you know, this idea of the exile being maybe a necessary condition. Yeah, it's a really interesting idea. I mean, there are a lot of great thinkers like that.
Of course, the other, my other working theory is, you know, I think Tocqueville says something like this some.
Somewhere where, you know, people who are actually successful in life would probably not be philosophers. Probably the philosophers are the ones who, you know, didn't. Didn't really make it in life and they're all right, well, I guess I'll be a philosopher, right? So maybe you got a couple type typology of philosophers going. But one, one thing I'll just mention here from this, this last chapter is it's striking me that he just talks about openly the Republic has fallen here. You know, I mean, he has talked about being the savior of the Republic at other, in earlier books, but here he's kind of saying, yeah, you know, since the overthrow of the Republic's already happened, you know, now at least it's been good for my writing career. Right. And it's kind of interesting how resigned he is to that.
He's. He doesn't, it doesn't seem like you get the picture of here of like, hey, Marcus, maybe you can, you know, save the Republic or something like that. It's more like, hey, maybe you can live a good life in this change situation.
There's a great book by, I think his name is Benjamin Strauman on Cicero's influence in later eras. And that's kind of what he argues is, hey, Cicero's great achievements are not really actually saving the Republic. They are the way they informed later efforts at building republics, not least the American Republic. Right. And so it's a really interesting element there of him seeing himself. I just. I hadn't seen anything like that so far, where he just says, yeah, you know, this. This hasn't worked, but it was a noble effort. And.
But, but now he has the concession of his. His productivity's gone up.
Maybe some encouragement for all of us too, you know, living in the time that we. That we live in.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: Right.
Coyle, would you finish up our. The last sections for this episode, Chapters five and six, and I'll take first comment.
[00:23:33] Speaker C: Now, my dear Cicero, while the whole of philosophy is fertile and fruitful and no part of it uncultivated and abandoned, still none of its topics is more productive and richer than that of duties we derive from them. Advice for living with constancy and honorably. That is why, even though I trust that you are continually hearing and absorbing all this from our dear Kratippus, who is the leading philosopher of living memory, I still consider it appropriate that your ears should be filled with such words, ringing with them from all sides, and should not, if possible, hear anything else.
Anyone who is thinking about embarking upon an honorable life ought to do so. But perhaps no one more than you for you, carry this burden. Many expect you to emulate my diligence, most my honors, and some, perhaps even my renown. Besides, you have incurred a weighty responsibility from Athens and from Krtippus, since you went to them, as if going to purchase arts of good quality, be most dishonorable to return empty handed, thus disgracing the authority of both city and master. Therefore, strive with as much spirit and struggle with as much effort as you can. If learning is an effort and not a pleasure, in order that you may succeed and not indeed instead allow yourself to seem to have let yourself down, even though we have provided everything for you. That is enough of that, for I have often written to you many words of encouragement. Now let me return to the remaining part of my proposed division.
All right.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: Well, we end this introductory part of book three with an exhortation to young Marcus to devote yourself to your studies. There's reasons all of us are counting upon you. There's a sort of reputation out there. People expect you all people, most people. Some people expect you to live up to my example in one way or another.
And so we just sort of urgency to don't flag now, continue to pay attention to this advice, to devote yourself to this most honorable and productive of topics, which is duties. How does one know what one's duty is? How does one decide and follow duty? Not in the abstract, not in the sort of philosophical sense of defining justice, but in the sense of choosing the right thing consistently in the practical affairs of everyday life. And that, of course, is addressed not just to young Marcus, but to all of us.
This is a decision making manual, so to speak, as much as it's a work of more than it's a work of abstract philosophy. So I think that's his sort of exclamation point at the end of this personal intro.
[00:25:57] Speaker D: Yes, Cicero is eminently practical, as we have said many times.
One thing that really stands out to me is just how he describes young Marcus project.
You went to study with Kratippus as if going to purchase arts of good quality.
And so it's not just a I sent you off to school, which is kind of the equivalent for our modern terms. It's no, you are off on a buying trip of all the goods that you will fill your mind with and then come home with and then use in order to beautify your life, but also in order to make it a better life, ethically as well as aesthetically. And I think this is something that we, our modern education system has sort of lost in understanding what education is for.
It's not just to prepare one to do things. It's also like, this is supposed to be something that allows us to recognize beauty better. It's supposed to be something that allows us to make our lives more beautiful, both physically and emotionally, mentally, spiritually.
And so we get this very practical stuff from Cicero, but then we get this little image that reminds us like, oh, this is. Education is both.
It is both useful and beautiful if done right.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Yeah, striking this, this phrase where he says, you know, I think you should be talking and listening to words about duties.
You know, your ears should always be ringing with them. And if possible, if you don't hear anything else, right, if you like, kind of have laser focus on what are my duties, right? Because like you said, you know, if you've got big shoes to fill and you know, we're all counting on you, that is expecting a lot from you. Like, this is a heavy, you know, responsibility that you have. It's kind of, you know, from. To.
To whom much is given, you know, much is expected.
And so the kind of noblesse oblige kind, kind of idea. And yeah, it's, it's just interesting. I mean, you know, maybe a parallel there we might draw with, you know, I think of Leviticus, you know, the, the, the instructions in Leviticus, like, hey, you know, put these on your, you know, your door frame. Hear these words on, you know, when you go out, when you come in, talk to them, talk to your children about them all the time. You know, just, it's interesting there this echo of, you know, hey, you need to hear this ideas again and again and kind of fill your mind with them and, and that'll shape your, your life.
[00:28:53] Speaker C: I, I, I wonder. So I don't know exactly the timeline where, where, where this falls in Cicero's life relative to where his son is at. So I know his son serves with Brutus for a while, which I'm sure Cicero was fine with, and then he serves with Pompey's son for a while, which Cicero might have been kind of on the fence about.
And then eventually he reconciles with Augustus Caesar and ends up serving under Caesar in the Roman Empire. I think he's like a co consul at some point with Caesar.
So I could, I could see that going either way. Right. He is, he has really learned the lesson of philosophy and adapted to how things are now, which means giving up on the Republic or he's sold out. And I don't know how Cicero would take that. Cicero, of course, is dead by the time he reconciles with Augustus.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Wow. No, that's certainly historical detail to look up. We'll need to find out just what happened to young Marcus on what timeline. I appreciate that.
That brings us to the end of chapter six of book three. We'll be looking into chapter seven and beyond in the next episode. You've been listening to the Cicero on Duties podcast with the scholars of the Ciceronian Society. I want to thank my co hosts, Coyle Neal, Ben Peterson and Catherine Bradshaw. We hope you'll tune in for the next episode to learn more about the Ciceronian Society and our programs to support a project of civic and cultural renewal. Please visit ciceroniansociety.or. thank you for watching. Goodbye.
